[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: The Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent Design.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Welcome to ID the Future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. Today I'm welcoming Dr. Tom Woodward to the podcast to share some of his memories of our longtime colleague, Dr. Jonathan Wells, who recently passed away at 82 years old. Dr. Wells was one of the first fellows at Discovery Institute's center for Science and Culture, and his contributions over the last quarter century to the Intelligent Design movement have been formidable.
Now, in case you're not familiar with Dr. Woodward, he is a professor at Trinity College of Florida where he teaches the history of science, communication and systematic theology. He is founder and director of the C.S. lewis Society, now known as Apologetics, Inc. And he lectures in universities on scientific, apologetic and religious topics. He is author of the award winning book Doubts About Darwin, A History of Intelligent Design.
Tom, it's a pleasure to have you with me today.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: It's a great pleasure for me too, Andrew. Thanks for inviting me.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And I really like the way that Bill Dembsky described you in the foreword to Darwin Strikes Back, your book that you wrote covering the or really defending the science of intelligent design and looking at what happened in those key years 2005 and 6 and even before. This is what Bill Dembski says about you. He says, like a spy in a John Lacar novel who has attended every crucial event in the Cold War, Tom Woodward has been ubiquitous in the unfolding culture war over Intelligent Design. He is the insider's insider with doubts about Darwin. He established himself as the historian of the Intelligent Design movement. And now with Darwin Strikes Back, he also assumes the role of a gifted war correspondent, moving up and down the lines of engagement, tracing streams of intense and often ferocious rhetoric as they are poured out upon design theorists by panic stricken Darwinists.
Love how he puts that. Well, I do hope to unpack some of the ideas in your book today and perhaps we can circle back on future conversations and look at more. But you know, Today it's about Dr. Wells and you had a chapter in your book Darwin Strikes back, all about Dr. Wells, and I'm going to unpack a little bit of that with you. But first let's go back to the beginning here, as we normally do. Tell us, how did you meet, Jonathan?
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Well, that was a great question and I was trying to kind of in my mind, plumb the depths of my many early meetings. And I would say this was the early 1990s. So there was a proto movement, a group, if you will, called the Ad Hoc Origins Committee. Talk about a humorous name, you know, Ad hoc, something you form and then you're going to disband it when you solve the problem. Well, this is more permanent. This is like the ad hoc committee to top all ad hoc committees, because the ad hoc Origins Group, which was having meetings of scholars and interested graduates of major universities and like lawyers, medical doctors, and people of all backgrounds, would join together to investigate the empirical collapse of the claims of Darwinian theory, which was coming to the forefront through the works such as by Philip Johnson, Darwin on Trial, and before that, Charles Thaxton's book the Mystery of Life's Origin. And of course, our own Michael Denton, who works closely with Discovery Institute. His book Evolution A Theory in Crisis was the H bomb that really kicked everything off. So as I was meeting some of these gentlemen in these various meetings on the west coast generally, I had the fantastic privilege of meeting Jonathan Wells early on, and he had been a graduate of Yale University. I attended Princeton, did my undergrad work there. So he went to the competition and really aced his doctoral dissertation in probing the history of the Darwinian idea in the 1800s and how it managed to pull off its coup and take over the paradigm of how we explain biological origins. But then, of course, as he was at that point just finishing entering, and then shortly after that finishing his doctoral work at berkeley, a second PhD. I thought, this guy is incredible. I mean, what, what has he not do. Done in his life already? And he had, by the way, entered Princeton, had dropped out at some point. I think maybe the end of his second year to fight in the army. He turned against the Vietnam War and actually, I think spent time in prison because he, he refused to, let's say, kowtow to the line. And so that was a bit of an oddity. But then, of course, after that, then, you know, came into his Yale years and later the Berkeley years, and I was flabbergasted. The guy was a walking encyclopedia. But he was so gentle, affable, and just a great straight shooter and a brilliant writer beyond belief.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And regarding that prison stint, I. I've been told that he considered it a good thing because it got it out of his, his system, you know, early. So he did the time and, you know, it kept him out of trouble later.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Oh, that's, that's crazy.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: But also helped harden him to, to the things that would come later, you know, especially in this debate over evolution. Now you tell the story of Jonathan's efforts to fight the battle over textbook misinformation in your book Darwin Strikes Back. So let's talk about that briefly, the book came out in 2006, when things were really heating up in the debate over evolution and intelligent design. The dust had hardly settled on the Smithsonian controversy with Rick Sternberg and Stephen MOMEYER when in August 2005, President Bush was asked whether he thought intelligent design should be taught in schools. And of course, that immediately spurred more media attention, including a Time magazine cover story on the evolution wars. In December that year, a federal judge declared that intelligent design was not science in the Kitzmiller vs Dover school board trial. But rather than kill ID dead as Darwinists were hoping, the trial and ensuing publicity really fanned the flames of the debate. One of the chapters in Darwin Strikes Back is dedicated to Jonathan Wells and his book Icons of Evolution. Why was it important to include Jonathan's work in your book?
[00:06:58] Speaker B: Well, that was one of the easiest decisions I made in major chapter divisions. I thought the only question is, should I have one or should I expand it to two chapters? Because Jonathan Wells critique of the standard. And Icons, of course, refers to pictures or images, visual conveyors of the truth, the utter absolute truth of Darwinian theory. And when they do that in these high school textbooks or even into college level, and students look at the. The image in front of them and wow, that just must be true. And the way that I would say Jonathan Wells went about selecting 10, the 10 most prominent and most, let's say, persuasive of these icons, these images, and how all of them were built on sand, all of them were just penetrated with thread after thread of distortion, deletion, and sometimes outright fraudulent actions such as the Haeckel drawings, when we, we might just touch on that later. But when, as I read the book and I actually really met him in a new way at the Yale University conference on intelligent Design, that I think was at Yale Law School. But anyway, I refer that, I refer to that conference in chapter four of my book, Darwin Strikes Back. And it was that conference that really sent his book into the stratosphere. It became the talk of the town or the talk of the movement. And so his critique, careful, I mean, meticulous Critique of all 10 of those images, the top 10, you might say, and they all collapse or dissolve. Then what is the reason for holding on to this theory anymore?
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Yeah, and I like your use of the word meticulous. This wasn't just something thrown together. This was a very careful and thorough investigation of these 10 icons. And I think the care that he put into it is what drove the Darwinists crazy and what drove Eugenie Scott, you know, who was talking about this, calling it a royal pain in the fanny. For us Darwinists, it was the meticulousness, the thoroughness of his research and the force, therefore, of his book. The thrust of the book. While you neatly describe the two main impacts of Jonathan's book, Icons of Evolution after it came out. I like the way you put it. You say reverberations and reform. Can you break those down a little bit for us?
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Sure. The reverberations really were how it got on the nerves. So Darwinists were like, shaking with.
Not always, but in certain cases, it became apparent in their rhetoric that they were inflamed, that they were just irate.
They could barely control themselves and they would use what I call sledgehammer rhetoric. I coined the term. Some of the people that read my book said that was the most fun thing you used when you compared the Darwinian's rhetoric to a big sledgehammer that claims to have destroyed you. And then you pop up stronger than ever. And so to me, they were trying to sledgehammer everything he said, and they just didn't have any oomph behind it because it was all based on distortions of what he had said, deletions. I mean, it was like they were creating a new icon and defending their icon. And so what. What I found amazing is that his reform, and that's kind of in. In light of the reverberation, you might say in our camp, the reverberations were excitement. We were just shaking with, you know, energy and excitement. We need to get the word out on this. There is no really strong case for macro, know, blind throw of the dice. Natural selection driven macro evolution. And so when. When he was making that case, it was reverberating positively among every id, you know, of devotee or scholar that I knew. And then it generated reforms and changes, which then Jonathan meticulously tracked, which I think you'd agree that's just so Jonathan Wells to track what's going on and then bring that to light. It was like the next generation. It was fabulous.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. He wanted to make sure that these things were being followed, followed up on. And the reform was real, but. And the reverberations, as you say, palpable in both camps. The Darwinist camp as well as the excitement in the intelligent design community.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: And didn't it really feed into the book, his wonderful book, Zombie science, where he updated the icons? Yeah.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: For years he wanted to assemble updates and add more icons, and he was finally able to do so with the follow up Zombie science It's a fabulous book.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: It's like another grand slam home run that didn't just clear the back fence. It's in orbit, going in orbit around the earth.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: And you mentioned this in your book, and I want to mention this to listeners right now. If you want an idea of the bravery and humor with which Dr. Wells faced down critics of Icons of Evolution, I want to encourage those who are listening to read Jonathan's own response to published critiques of his book. He called it, critics Rave over Icons of Evolution. And I'm going to include a link in the show notes for today's episode so you can get to that way. But you can also just do a search, just type Critics Rave over Icons of Evolution. And you'll find Jonathan's awesome write up and responds to these critics. Very enjoyable stuff. Now, Tom, one of the icons that Wells wrote about is Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings alleging common descent among eight vertebrate species, including humans. Now you mentioned this icon being personal to your own journey. Tell us briefly about that.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Sure. Well, my dad, I did my, as I mentioned, my undergrad at Princeton University, my dad had done the same. And actually three, three older brothers of mine who were valedictorians as I was, we all were subtly convinced that, you know, we ought to go to Princeton and not Yale or Harvard. And so, but it's so besides that, that kind of the tradition or family. My dad was a very strong, he was a card carrying, you know, Protestant church attender, but he was also adamant about evolution. And he showed me these heckle drawings from his biology book they had had in the class of 1928 at Princeton University.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: He showed them to me and then I said, these are cool. These are so powerful. They convince anybody who has doubts. And so I took them into my biology class. I was actually in ninth grade at the time. And Dr. Weingoop, a local veterinarian who doubled as the biology teacher, took them and said, oh, these are great. And he, with me helping him, we convinced the whole class that this is the, this is the bottom slam dunk proof of Darwin. And then when I read what was wrong with this, I mean, I kind of had an inkling already after transitioning to Christian theism in college there at Princeton. But I was just amazed when I found out how egregious, how over the top his distortions were. And then of course, he ignored the very beginning stages and the very end stages, as Jonathan Wells brings out so well, he just, just narrowed on some, a very few species that Have a very superficial, maybe 20%, you know, appearance. But even the details don't, don't check out when, when you dive into it, it's, it's a huge falling apart that is just so clear and teaches us a lesson that we can't always just take pictures and run with them.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: And your story does show that the power of an image. He really knew what he was doing when he crafted this image, you know, trying to make these look so similar that the argument became foolproof, you know, that they had common ancestry and were coming from a similar ancestor.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: If you have fish gills, if humans have fish gills, then we must have been fish. And of course, those are not gills at all. They're pharyngeal pouches which turn into parts of the jaw and the inner ear and whatnot.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it's crazy. Well, thank you for sharing that story and the personal nature of it. So Jonathan Wells and Michael Behe headlined an event in September 2006 in your neck of the woods, the University of South Florida. Tell us about that event and why it stands out in the history of the ID movement.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Well, it was a bit of sticking our neck out because we actually booked by faith, you might say the largest auditorium or one of the largest auditoriums in Tampa Bay at that time. I mean there was. The ballpark had just been completed that was not really practical for us, the ball stadium of the Rays. But this huge indoor arena, 10,000 seat arena, was made available at a really good price to rent out to have the first large ID conference with, we hope for about four or five thousand students and alumni, you know, professors and anybody interested in this debate. And so we basically created a conference and we actually invited some medical professionals to get involved. And we had a group called Doctors Doubting Darwin, also known as Physicians and Surgeons for Scientific Integrity. And they co sponsored with us this amazing opportunity. Basically, doubts about Darwin were aired in this arena and we didn't know if we'd have a thousand or two thousand might turn out. We had over 4,000 students and also people from the area from Tampa Bay to hear Michael Behe, to hear Jonathan Wells, a short presentation by Bill Demski and some other professors who flew in for the occasion. We turned it into a weekend, but the Friday night event was, I think, the largest ID turnout that I've heard of in the history of the movement.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Wow. And how well was it received?
[00:17:29] Speaker B: Well, the picture we often will put out from that conference shows a lineup of about 20 students standing behind the microphone ready to ask Jonathan Wells or also, you know, Michael Behe, the questions. And they got. Both of those talks were so powerful so that the audience got a really fantastic overview. A really in depth, but understandable. And they didn't go into technical, you know, jargon. And so for us, it was like a success. So amazing. We just, we're just thankful that we had the opportunity to put it on.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Yeah, sounds like there was a real hunger for this, this topic. And indeed, you know, Intelligent Design had had really saturated the culture in terms of, of it being a possibility and the debate about being in schools, you know, it was, it was, it was in the public consciousness at this time. And it sounds like this, this event really captured that.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it was called Darwin or Design. And the only people who really tried to shut us down were the professors in the biology department. They did not want this material aired at all. But the university president, a wonderful gal, said, nope, we don't have any pre judging of events like this. The event will go on. Yeah, I'm thankful for that.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: Well, Tom, I think this sets us up for more discussion, in particular about, about Dr. Wells and just the qualities that he had. I want to ask you more questions about it. I think we'll close this episode out, but I'm excited to bring you back and we'll continue the discussion. Folks, in addition to having books by Jonathan Wells on your shelf, such as Icons of Evolution or the sequel Zombie Science, you can add to that Tom Woodward's books, which will give you a big picture view of the history of Intelligent design. Look for doubts about Darwin and Darwin Strikes back wherever you can order or find books. Well, Tom, we'll be back. And for ID the Future. Thanks again, I'm Andrew McDermott. Appreciate you listening.
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[00:19:54] Speaker B: Center for Science and Culture.
