Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: The Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent Design.
Welcome to ID the Future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. Today I'm welcoming back Dr. Tom Woodward as he continues to share with us some of his memories of our longtime colleague Dr. Jonathan Wells, who recently passed away at 82 years old. Dr. Wells was one of the first fellows at Discovery Institute's center for Science and Culture. And his contributions over the last 25 years to the Intelligent Design movement have been very influential and formidable and we're going to unpack a little bit of that in our discussion today. In case you're not familiar with Dr. Woodward, he's professor at Trinity College of Florida where he teaches the history of science, communication and systematic theology. He is founder and director of the C.S. lewis Society, now known as Apologetics, Inc. And lectures in universities on scientific, apologetic and religious topics. He is author of the award winning books Doubts About Darwin, A History of Intelligent Design and the follow up Darwin Strikes Defending the Science of Intelligent Design. Tom, welcome back.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: It's great to be with you.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Well, in the first half of our conversation, you talked about how you met Dr. Wells and we discussed your 2006 book, Darwin Strikes Back, in particular the chapter detailing Dr. Wells efforts to combat textbook misinformation with his amazing book Icons of Evolution. We also discussed an event at the University of south Florida in 2006 that was headlined by Wells and Michael Behef. So let's get right back into it.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: Let's go for it.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: All right, so you've said that Jonathan was an amazing communicator and persuader and that this came out at crazy levels of excellence in his writing. What was it about his communicating that made him so effective?
[00:02:01] Speaker A: Well, it's almost, I, I, I don't know how to describe it other than it was weighty, but it was also not overdone. He didn't scream, he didn't exaggerate.
So everything was crafted like a, you know, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci. He was in his rhetoric, you know, and that's my, my Ph.D. is rhetoric of Science. And I actually explored the history of the Intelligent Design movement for the University of South Florida. The name of my dissertation, 355 pages, I think it was, was aroused from dogmatic slumber, I called it. That's a phrase that comes from philosophy, where I think Kant gave credit to Hume for arousing him from dogmatic slumber by what he had written. He just woke him up. Well, to me, this whole movement is awakening people to, from the slumber of, you know, just Go to sleep. You know, we evolved. Just don't worry about it. All the evidence is there and we're aroused from dogmatic slumber. Well, but this is especially seen. His ability to accurately and powerfully engage the reader was seen in his book the Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design.
I think that that one book is a, I talked about a home run that gets into orbit. This is a home run that is smashed so effectively and powerfully it goes on its orbit out of orbit into trajectory to Mars. Okay, so Jonathan Wells hit the ball so squarely and powerfully that when I read that book I immediately became, it became my textbook. In any attempt to teach intelligent design, I said, I can't help myself, it's such a fantastic book. And so if, if I can recommend one, you know, let's say lesser known book by Jonathan Wells that is deserving of being used as the most unbelievable introduction to intelligent Design and, and the problems of Darwinian theory, it would be this, just this one, one off, best ever book on id, the Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design. And when I read that I was able to use the book, it became my, if you will, toolkit. You know, I'd already written one book and another one was about to come out when I read this one. I said, oh my goodness, I may use my books, but I'm going to recommend this book as the best in the topic. And ever since then, it's because of his ability to grab your attention and to hold it and to convey the truth so that you get it. But he doesn't, as I said earlier in our discussions, he doesn't over overstate things. He doesn't scream, shout, stomp his foot. He just slides the truth right there across the tray from one side to the other. And you, you get it. You say, aha. I now understand why intelligent design makes sense and Darwinian theory is the collapsing house of cards.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I appreciate your, your ideas there and, and the mention of this lesser known gem, you know, it's one that I've, I've, you know, glanced through but I haven't read thoroughly. Did you appreciate the way it was set up? I mean this, this is part of a series of books that are geared to the everyday person, you know, and they have sidebars and they, they sort of make it visually appealing. Was that, was that helpful to you when you first picked it up?
[00:05:57] Speaker A: Well, it was helpful and I will say that I believe Thomas Bethel, the same one who was, worked closely, I think at times the Discovery Institute, who now has a past, sadly. But Bethel, also Oxford trained science journalist, wrote of course, the Darwin's House of Cards, which is outstanding, but he also wrote a Politically Correct Guide to science which has, I think one, maybe one or two chapters on intelligent design.
So that series, the Politically Incorrect Guide to, you know, and then fill in the blank for whatever comes after that. It's a little controversial, but I think though generally that series hits the ball out of the park in many, many cases. And the one that's done by Bethel on the Politically Incorrect Guide to Science is almost like a lead in. It sets you up for this more devoted to the particular Question of Origins book that Jonathan Wells was able to just master. I would say he showed himself to be a master storyteller or explainer, perhaps as good. I mean, I, I put them right up there with Stephen Meyer, Michael Behee, I mean, Paul Nelson. Let's bring in the, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, as it's sometimes referred to. Yeah, yeah, the Four Horsemen of Intelligent Design is what I'm referring to. Of course, the, the whole idea of understanding the case against Darwin, but for design is achieved, I think again by Jonathan Wells as effectively, if not more effectively, than any other writer of our generation.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: And it is important, the ability to communicate well, you know, you can have the finest theory on planet Earth, but if you cannot communicate, you know, the essential portions of it and the importance of it, then what do you have? You know, so it sounds like Jonathan was able to do both, and he.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: Was able to do it and maintain an affable, gentle, even, you might say, Swedish sweet. Like, I don't mean like from Sweden, but sweet and thoughtful and kind relationship. I mean, he was the ultimate gentleman and was so fun to listen to in his easygoing manner. I just, I could listen to him all day long and just enjoy it and just say, okay, more, more at the end of the day.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Well, and that was my next question. You know, the personal qualities of Dr. Wells, we've talked about his abilities to be an excellent communicator, but just in what you just said, you're mentioning some of the qualities, the sweet nature, but also his ability to, you know, totally eradicate an idea by refuting it. So. So, well, he was able to have that balance. Right? And like you said, he didn't stomp his feet and, and yell at you. It was the force of the evidence and the ability he had to communicate it.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Yes, he knew exactly how to convey powerful truths. In a matter of fact, you might say easy going but oh my goodness, what a crunch moment at the end of whatever he would say because he had brought together, he had masked the evidence, he made the argument and he just dropped it gently in your lap and you had to, oh, what am I going to do with this? And I, whenever I would call him on the phone, it was a delight. I mean, he was one of my ultra heroes of formulating and advancing, you know, complexifying. He would sometimes bring in some complexity, but if you need a little bit of a layer of understanding of like the cellular complexity issue, I thought this is bonkers, crazy. It's exciting, but it's a little bit beyond me. And he said, well, let me explain. And after he explained it, I said, oh, wow, I get it. Yeah, maybe at some point we can enter that realm of the cell and his work that really paved the way for our work in epigenetics.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Well, my next question is sort of two parts here. One, you know, you've traced a lot of the history of the Intelligent design movement, the 80s, the 90s, the early 2000s.
I just want to pick your brain a little bit about where you see the state of the Intelligent design research project today. And coupled with that, in what ways will Jonathan's legacy carry Intelligent Design forward into the future?
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Wow, that's a, that's a great two part question. Thank you for bringing it up. Can I have a week to get come up with an answer?
[00:10:44] Speaker B: We'll see you next time.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: So the, the first part of the question, you know, just referring to where I see things, how the, how I see the status of the debate, of the movement and engaging with the mainstream, if you will, doctrinaire Darwin side of things.
So I think in my writing I have to contain my enthusiasm and keep it under check. Because if I just were to sit here like a cheerleader and say, we can win, I mean, you say, well, that's your job, you're a cheerleader. You know, you're supposed to rev up the crowd. But to me, any sane person who's been following this debate and knows the rhetoric, the arguments, the evidence, the studies that have been coming out on both sides, and you might say all three sides, if you're looking at a postmodern Darwinian synthesis, which I talk about in my book Darwin Strikes Back, there's now three teams on the field. There's the Darwin field, there's the Intelligent Design field, but there's this third group which is trying to reform quietly. They don't want to say Darwin flunks, they don't want to say Darwin utterly fails. They just say Darwin needs to be expanded. We need to, let's say, add some other mechanisms. And what they're really saying is, okay, macroevolution is not, you know, it's not happening through natural selection. And that's a devastating admission. So they, so they say we're going to bring in new methods and new ways of bringing change. Masterful, you know, nature only change mechanisms. And you say, what are those? Oh, we have a number of them. We're working on our best, our best scientists are working on them. And so when you go into this debate, this three way debate, neo Darwinism, their new postmodern synthesis that they're working on, and then intelligent Design, I would say Intelligent Design has a massive advantage because the arguments that are being made on the other side are more hand waving storytelling and give us more time. We think that this has promise in the future when they talk about these other little mechanisms. Let me give you one example. Epigenetics is not a very good mechanism to bring about major biological change. But that's one of their aces. They think that's one of our common cards in our hand that is going to, you know, bring us to the finish line. Now I studied epigenetics, so I've written a book on epigenetics, you know, and we're now redoing it for a new edition. But epigenetics is not going to work. So where does Jonathan Wells fit in this whole picture? I think Jonathan Wells more than anyone else has shown the tremendous, almost landslide of evidence pouring in from every major area of biology and how it's pointing more and more and more to design.
So I want to be bullish, but I don't want it by, you know, just shouting I'm excited or something like that. I just want to say, look at this area, look at this area. Just go through a whole complete list in every area. Intelligent design is just doing great with the pointing of evidence and testing through actual experimental investigations.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: So a cautious optimism. Well, you mentioned you're working on a new edition of your book on epigenetics and I thought we'd conclude on that note. Today you've said that Jonathan Wells was our titan, our Galileo figure in ID's connection with epigenetics. So first remind us what epigenetics is all about and then tell us about Jonathan's mind boggling insights on the design beyond DNA in every physical nook and cranny of a cell.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Sure. Well, epigenetics is Something that I was introduced to by my co author, Dr. James Gills. He is a famous ophthalmologist.
He has been a colleague of mine in this area of design versus Darwinism, I'd say for about 25 years, going on to 30 years at this point. And he engaged me in studying the world of technology and digital coding. Actual information content that was above and beyond the DNA. Not only human DNA, but any DNA in any cell, whether it be a microbe, one cell, bacteria, all the way up to, you know, a sequoia tree, a blue whale or a human being. And so all cells have the digital code in its genome. And that genome, of course, has been studied and studied and studied. And we know about genes, we're learning a lot more about DNA. That is mind blowing. But epigenetics moves, as it were, to the next level above the DNA. And it really explores and catalogs informational processing of DNA by the world of technology that is beyond the genome. Just think of it as you have a message. But that message just sitting there could be either copied like a cell has genes, and if they're needed, then they would be copied. But what if you don't need that information? Let's say in a muscle cell, it's a gene that is only used in the eye cell to form the retina, let's say. So those genes that form the retinal tissue and the vision cascade that Michael Behe talks about, they can be just turned off in other cells. So this little tiny methane molecule called a methyl tag is placed on the backbone of DNA. And those, it's a pair of methyl tags. Usually there are a number of these pairs along the spine. And those methyl tags turn the gene off. Well, in a typical cell, there are 60 million approximately of these methyl tags. The off switches are placed at just the right spot along the genome. So there's information. The on off switching is information that the cell is not recording in the ATCGs, it's maintaining it somewhere above the DNA. But each cell needs its own atlas of which genes are on and which genes are off.
So that's just one of many codes I could go on and give code upon code upon code. Some people estimate 100 or 200 of these other codes are interacting with our DNA code in a single mammalian cell. And I estimate in our new edition that it's well over, I would say at least 80, maybe 160 or more of these codes, and of which we only know of, let's say, maybe half of them in detail. The others were Just glimpsing for the first time in recent decades.
So it's a mind boggling view of the cell as more densely filled with information than we have ever imagined. We, meaning the general public, and you might say biologists even can be included in that.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: We.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: And so the idea of information above the genome was really opened up to a new level by what Jonathan Wells told me just about 12, 15 years ago. If we have time, I can maybe mention that.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So Dr. Wells sensed the importance of these additional layers of information that were in the cell that we're still learning about. In what ways did he put that forward?
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Well, he actually sent me a copy of a paper which we may be able to release it at some point. It didn't have his authorization to release it at the time that I last spoke to him, but later actually it was rewritten in a very wonderful way. And I believe it was published by Bio Complexity, a journal that you guys, I think, have been supportive of. And so what he basically said, the fertilized egg zygote, it's called, has information potentially. And he, I think would move beyond potentially. He would say probably in the last several years of his life. That fertilized egg cell doesn't just have digital information down in the DNA, but rather every three dimensional positioning of every single molecule in that zygote contributes directly or indirectly to the unfurling of that fertilized egg into whatever kind of animal or plant that it is.
And that unfurling process is guided along the way by the even magnetic fields, but at least the three dimensional micro biomolecule positioning in the original egg. So we're talking about a moving from, if you will, if the genome is like a little anthill, we're looking now at Mount Everest in terms of the, of the information content of that fertilized egg cell. We call it the zygote code. And we really have dedicated that part of our book to Jonathan Wells because he inspired our research into this area. And in a recent article that was produced by the journal Cell, it was actually written by a professor at Stanford University. He's done tremendous work, Stephen Quake, in this area. And he is not a defender, an exponent of intelligent design. He just works in engineering areas of working with genetic content of the genome and also information above the genome. And he agrees that there is the potential that we will find the three dimensional positioning of every, every biomolecule in the fertilized zygote as contributing to the total information wealth of that developing animal or plant from its single fertilized egg cell. And so when I read that just a few months ago in the journal Cell, as he was talking about some major astonishing breakthroughs, I thought, I think Jonathan Wells was, was on the right track with the zygote code.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: While just layers upon layers of information, and we're still grappling with it, we're still trying to get a bird's eye view of what this all means. Well, I'm excited for the book that you will be bringing out the reissue of of your book in a new version, and I think Jonathan would be excited, too. Dr. Woodward, I appreciate you taking the time to share your memories and experiences of Dr. Wells and all the work you've done to report on the history of the Intelligent Design movement. I mean, needless to say, our best history is yet to come. But we value your books as we look back at how far we've come. So thank you for your time and for being with us today.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Thank you for inviting me on. It was a ton of fun, folks.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: In addition to having books by Jonathan Wells on your shelf, such as Icons of Evolution or the sequel Zombie Science, you can add to that Tom Woodward's books, which will give you, like I said, that big picture view of the history of Intelligent Design. Look for doubts about Darwin and Darwin Strikes Back wherever you find books. And to learn more about Dr. Woodward's other work, you can visit apologetics.org also be sure to catch remembrances of Jonathan Wells on separate episodes from Dr. Paul Nelson, Dr. Rick Sternberg, Dr. Casey Luskin, and Dr. Stephen Meyer. For ID the Future, I'm Andrew McDermott. Thanks for listening.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Visit us@idthefuture.com and intelligent design.org this program.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: Is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: Its center for Science and Culture.
