[00:00:04] Speaker A: ID the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Welcome, listeners. I'm your host for this episode of ID the Future. Today I'm sitting down with dr. Brian miller to get his reflections on this year's westminster conference on science and faith held in glen mill, pennsylvania. Dr. Miller serves as research coordinator for the center for Science and Culture at Discovery Institute. He holds a BS in Physics with a minor in engineering from MIT and a PhD in physics from Duke University. He speaks internationally on the topics of intelligent design and the impacts of worldviews on society, and he helps to manage the ID 30 research program. Brian welcome back to ID the future.
[00:00:52] Speaker C: It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Well, the theme at this year's Westminster conference was The Miracle of man, and the guiding question was this is mankind an error prone accident of nature or a masterpiece of engineering ingenuity and intention? The conference explored the uniqueness of human beings in the fields of physiology, biology, paleontology, and genetics, as well as theology and philosophy. Special topics included human sexuality, the future of humanity, the threat of totalitarian science, a Christian approach to teaching Stem, and the relation of the brain to the mind. So lots going on at this event. And Brian, you attended the conference and gave a breakout lecture on the wonders of human vision. We're going to have you back for a whole episode on that subject. It's just fascinating, and you present some amazing material. But for this episode, could you just give us some brief highlights of what you covered in your talk?
[00:01:50] Speaker C: Certainly. So I talked a bit about the design of human vision in a very comprehensive way. So I compared it to the design of a digital camera and shown how it followed the same basic logic and had many of the features, such as focusing light, adjusting light exposure, and performing preprocessing in the retina. I also talked a bit about the design behind the image processing in the brain, how our brains not only identify images, but it also sends feedback for automatic lens adjustments, changing the size of the pupil, and repositioning our eyes. I then talked a bit about the details of the photoreceptors and how they have nine adaptive mechanisms that allow for us to see light with an intensity that can range from a single photon to trillions of photons per second. And then I talked a bit about the uniqueness of human vision, our ability to see high detailed vision, much more so than other organisms. And I also talked about how our ability for high acuity vision also depends upon many aspects of the design of the laws of nature and even the design of our own planet.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Okay. And all of the systems that contribute to our vision, they all are irreducibly complex because they require each other to operate, isn't that right?
[00:03:06] Speaker C: That's definitely the case that if you have multiple systems that do not work perfectly together. You will not have the vision that we have now.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Evolutionists have presented a story for how the eye could have evolved. Did you address that in your talk? I did.
[00:03:21] Speaker C: In fact, it's one of the most classic evolutionary narratives because they talk about how the eye didn't start out as complex as what we see in humans, but it started out as simply a photoreceptor, perhaps an eye spot in a single organism, a single cell organism. And then what happened is it gradually became more complex. So you have, let's say, an array of photoreceptors. Eventually you can develop a lens to partially focus the image, and eventually you have modern eyes with its extraordinary abilities. And I talked about the implausibility of that scenario because if you look at each transition requires multiple, highly coordinated changes at once. So, for instance, if you go from an eye without a lens to an eye with a lens, you have to in a single moment, have the complex systems in place for the development of a lens. So, for instance, when an embryo develops into an adult, what happens is a lens develops through a very complex series of cellular differentiation. And what happens if all of that system is not in place? To perfectly differentiate the lens into an organ that's transparent, then undifferentiated tissue will actually block vision, and all the initial mutations will be lost. I also talked about the implausibility of going from an organism with a lens that partially focuses to an organism that has high acuity vision, because the lens produces a very sharp image. And the challenge is producing a sharp image is of no value unless you have the neural network in place with the retina and the brain to be able to process highly detailed images. And it's a very complex process. So I showed how the basic evolutionary narrative does not work when you look at the details of the biology, and.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: You showed me some of the images that you chose for your presentation, and they were fascinating when you paired it with the information you've just told us. In summary, the deeper you dive into these systems, the more amazing they become. And it's just great. But we will focus on a whole episode, so listeners look for that, a full episode with Brian Miller on human vision. So we will get back to that. Now, Michael Denton was a featured speaker at this year's Westminster conference. He recently published a book called The Miracle of man, which was the conference title. Now, in that book and in his talk, Denton argues that the cosmos is stunningly fit, not just for cellular life, not just for carbon based animal life, and not even just for air breathing animals, but especially for bipedal, land roving, technology pursuing creatures of our general physiological design. In short, the cosmos is specifically fit for creatures like us. So, Brian, what did you think about Denton's lecture? On opening night. What were some of the things that impressed you there?
[00:06:17] Speaker C: Well, his lecture was absolutely stunning in its breadth and its depth. And what he showed is how there is design behind everything from the laws of nature to our planet, to the human body itself. So for instance, he talked about how life requires four elements hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen in large abundance. And every one of those elements has very specific properties that are uniquely designed to allow for life to exist. He also talked a bit about the amazing properties of water that allow for complex life throughout our planet. And he also talked about the design of our atmosphere, that our atmosphere allows just the right type of light through, namely heat and visible light, but it blocks harmful radiation. And he talked about how our planet is not simply designed for life, but particularly for human life because it allows for technological advancement. So the atmosphere that we breathe has the perfect amount of oxygen and nitrogen to allow for fire, because if we had more oxygen or too little nitrogen, we'd burn down our forests. If we had too little, we couldn't produce fire in abundance, but we have just the right amount of oxygen and nitrogen to produce fire. That allows for technological advancement because you can melt metals and produce tools. And many aspects of the human body is also perfectly designed for technological advancement in complex societies. So the breadth of his talk was incredibly impressive and I thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: And listeners, if you do want to dig deeper into Denton's fitness arguments, he's got book after book unpacking them. The Miracle of man was just the latest one, but he had firemaker. He had the miracle of the cell and one on light, children of light. Just amazing arguments there. Now, Brian, on the second day of the conference, attendees had their pick of several interesting breakout sessions. Several members actually, of the engineering research group spoke. What were their topics?
[00:08:19] Speaker C: Well, for instance, Emily Reeves, who is one of our staff scientists, who's a biologist, did a really beautiful talk about blood sugar regulation. And she showed how understanding it from an engineering perspective helps you to understand how the entire system works together with other systems of the body in a highly symphonic way. For instance, what happens is you've got to have the right amount of sugar in every different cell, and different cells require different amounts of sugar. So you have incredibly complex feedback loops that ensure the right amount of sugar goes to the right place at the right time. Another talk was by Howard Glixman and Steve Loughman, who wrote the book your Design Body. And they talked about some excerpts from the book. For instance, Howard Glixman talked about the difficulty of staying alive, how we must have numerous ingenious systems that maintain everything from the right amounts of oxygen to the right PH to the proper amounts of glucose. And if anything is not perfectly engineered to keep these right levels, the organism will die, particularly humans. And then Steve Loughman, who is a systems engineer, talked about how the way these systems work together can only be understood from a systems engineering perspective. In particular, if you've got one problem like maintaining the right amount of oxygen, that leads to a whole cascade of other problems that have to be carefully engineered to work together to maintain life. So, for instance, to supply oxygen throughout the body, you've got to have special cells that will transport the oxygen, but they have to have metals, they have to have iron to be able to absorb enough oxygen. So that leads to another problem. How do you get the metal in those cells? So that means that you have to have a system that will take iron out of the environment when you eat food, but then the iron can harm other cells. You have to have a protective system that properly delivers the iron safely to your blood system. And they gave many examples of that, how you have systems interrelating with other systems that must be working together properly to keep us alive.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what gets me, is not just the intricacy of each system, but the interdependence of all of the systems to function as a whole body. It was the perfect book for that conference, for sure. Well, who was on the panel discussing human uniqueness and what did they address?
[00:10:50] Speaker C: Yeah, there was a really nice panel discussion on human uniqueness, and that included Casey Luskin, who's one of the directors of Discovery Institute, bob Marks, who's an expert in machine learning, artificial intelligence, different fields like that. Mark Garcia, who's a theologian and professor at Westminster, and John West, who's one of the directors who's a director of the center for Science and Culture. And each of them talked about a unique capacity of humans. Casey Luskin talked about the unique features of the anatomy of humans and how different we are from any other primate, even those that are supposed to be our ancestors, like Australpithecines. He also talked about the fossil record, which doesn't show this gradual development of an ape like creature into a human. But humans arrive very abruptly, and there's many changes that seem to happen at once, showing that we're not an accident of nature, but we're designed for purpose. Also, Bob Marx talked about how human intelligence is very different from things like artificial intelligence and obviously very different from other animals. And what happens is humans have capacities that are unique to humans, like artificial intelligence cannot demonstrate the same level of creativity as humans. And then Mark Garcia and John West talked about unique capacities of humans, such as higher intelligence, our desire for ethics, and even our ability for spirituality. And all the talks demonstrated that we're very different from other animals by design, and we're also very different from artificial intelligence.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: And that is a hallmark of these conferences. Listeners is just the thought provoking options that you have all weekend long. Well, neurosurgeon Michael AgNor concluded the conference with a talk on brain, mind, and soul. What were your thoughts on his lecture?
[00:12:45] Speaker C: Well, it was an excellent presentation, and what he talked about is a lot of the experimental evidence that shows that our minds are different from our brains. So our minds, our ability to think, reason, have complex relationships, depend on the brain, but there's something beyond our brain. And what happens is he talked about several experiments from neuroscience that showed that fact. So, for instance, there's these experiments that would test our ability for free will, our ability to make decisions. And what they showed is our ability to make decisions, to act independently of our neurons, is something that suggests our mind is something beyond our brains. He did a beautiful talk on that. He also talked about different experiments that illustrated that our mind must be something beyond our brains. Examples would be like near death experiences where people who go into cardiac arrest, who are on the surgery table, their brain activity ceases, but they can still have memories of conversations in the room that they're in or even the room next to them. So these very vivid images that people have are not something that originated from the brain, the physical brain, but something beyond that. He also talked about these amazing observations, how you have children that are born with only a small fraction of their brain, like most of their head is filled with water. Yet despite the fact that so much of the physical brain appears to be missing, their mental capacities are on par with other people. So the talk essentially showed that our mind was something beyond our brains, and how that's supported by the best scientific evidence.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Wow, that's really interesting. And speaking of all the different talks that they had, we will be releasing some of them in the near future, isn't that correct?
[00:14:38] Speaker C: That is correct.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Okay, so listeners can look for that. Now, I'm curious, what kind of people did you meet at the conference? And when they asked you questions, what themes emerged? What did you get a sense that people were really concerned about and looking for in this conference?
[00:14:54] Speaker C: Well, there was a mix of everyone from academics, people with advanced degrees, to just laypeople. So it was a very diverse audience, and it was really nice because we were able to reconnect with some of our alumni of the summer seminar. We were able to connect with some very high level biology researchers who want to work with us. So it was very nice to have it on the East Coast, because that way people who live on the East Coast could much more easily come and help to collaborate with a lot of us on the West Coast who work for discovery and other researchers in our network. And in terms of the questions, what we found was there was a variety of questions, but one of the big questions that came up is when you see so much clear evidence for design in biology, and particularly for human uniqueness, why is it that so many people have difficulty accepting that fact? And that was a question I received and basically talked about how when you're raised in the west, when you grow up in the United States or Europe, or a country very strongly influenced by Western philosophy, what you find is people are trained to see the world through this very materialist philosophical grid. In other words, they're born into a world where they're taught that everything is only the product of natural processes. They're taught to essentially ignore the evidence of design you see in nature. So it's that philosophical grid that makes it hard for many people, through no fault of their own, to recognize the design in nature. But what's encouraging is that the evidence of design is becoming so clear and so overwhelming that it's going to become increasingly difficult to deny the evidence in front of their eyes and a bit.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: Easier to give in to what Doug Axe calls that design intuition that's built into all of us. Well, during the COVID Pandemic, we all got somewhat used to virtual events. And while they're convenient, they certainly don't compare to the thrill and the experience of in person events. What are the benefits of brick and mortar events like the Westminster Conference or the Dallas Science and Faith Conference that we hold each year?
[00:16:56] Speaker C: Well, probably what I think is the most invaluable aspect of these conferences is talking to people individually. So the conversations, the presentations, spark ideas. They present new evidence, but then people will take that and talk about it over dinner, they'll talk about it over lunch, over coffee, and it's just a beautiful time to make new connections. So, for instance, Casey Luskin and I were able to connect with new biologists, so we never met in person. We were able to talk to old colleagues. So it's a beautiful time for us to come together, share about the research we're doing, have updates, and there's also a time for new people to connect in our network. So that is really the most invaluable part of these conferences, is the relationships that develop. It's the side conversations, and it's the ability just to reconnect with old colleagues and friends.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've been at Discovery, what, twelve years going on 13, and for me, even the biggest, most enjoyable moments have been these in person events where we all get together and we have a celebration of the evidence and the arguments, and then we get to fellowship and interact. It's just an amazing time. Well, this year's Westminster Conference is finished, but there are always more events on the horizon. Brian, if listeners are interested in going to a future conference or event, where can they see what's coming?
[00:18:22] Speaker C: Well, if you go to Discovery, our main website, and go to Events, discovery events, you can see all the events that are becoming up over the next several months. So that's a great place to keep up with what we're doing. Also, if you sign up for our regular email updates, that's another great way to always be in the know of what's taking place.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: That's very true, because you don't always remember to check a calendar, but if you get an email or see something in social media, that's a good reminder. So, listeners, be sure you're getting Notabene, which is our regular email newsletter, sent out once a week with all our highlights.
And keep in touch via socials as well. Well, there's already a theme for 2020 four's Westminster conference. It's God's splendor in the universe. That's the title. It will explore the finely tuned design of the cosmos, the uniqueness of our solar system and planet, and the implications for faith. Speakers will include philosopher Jay Richards and astrobiologist Guillermo Gonzalez. You might recognize those names as coauthors of the privileged planet. So, listeners, mark your calendars. It'll be fall of 2024. You can get the date and the
[email protected]. Events well, Brian, thank you so much for taking the time to unpack this conference. For those who weren't able to make it, thank you.
[00:19:44] Speaker C: It's been a pleasure to be here.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: If you enjoy the podcast, consider leaving a written review at Apple podcasts. Find more episodes on your podcasting platform of choice.
[email protected] until next time, I'm Andrew McDermott. Thanks for listening.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: Visit
[email protected] and intelligentdesign.org. This program is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by its center for Science and Culture.
