[00:00:04] Speaker A: Id the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
Was the universe designed with life in mind, or are we the accidental result of chance processes? Welcome to id the future. Im your host, Andrew McDermott. Well, today im back with my friend and colleague Doctor Jonathan McClatchy to continue our ongoing series unpacking the countless features of the universe that are finely tuned for advanced life to exist and flourish. Doctor McClatchy is a fellow and resident biologist at the Discovery Institutes center for Science and Culture. He was previously an assistant professor at Sadler College in Boston, where he lectured biology for four years. McClatchy holds a bachelors degree in forensic biology, a masters degree in evolutionary biology, a second masters in medical and molecular bioscience, and a PhD in evolutionary biology. His research interests include the scientific evidence of design in nature, arguments for the existence of God, and New Testament scholarship. Jonathan is also founder and director of talkaboutdoubts.com dot Jonathan, it's good to have you back.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: Great to be here. Thanks for having me on again.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: You're welcome. Well, in his book Darwin's Black Box, biochemist Michael Beheveden writes that in order to understand the barriers to evolution, we have to bite the bullet of complexity. He says he also adds, to appreciate complexity, you have to experience it. And in his recent book foresight, brazilian chemist doctor Marcos Eberlin encourages us to dip a toe in the ocean of ingenuity. Ingenuity that in our universal experience is wedded to a power unique to intelligent agents. And thats foresight. Your articles at Evolution news, Jonathan, are helping readers appreciate the complexity at the heart of life by giving them a chance to experience it a little bit and better understand the argument that an unguided, gradual darwinian process cannot account for many of the life friendly features at work in the universe. And that's why we're having these conversations on ID the future. To unpack all that now. Today we're going to hone in to two articles you wrote recently, one on the life friendly properties of the non metal atoms and another on the extraordinary element carbon in particular. Now first let me ask you this. You write that nature doesnt owe us a life friendly environment. You note that there are far more ways the universe could have developed that are non conducive to life than there are life friendly ways. And yet here we are, able to live and study the universe around us. Its surprising, or is it surprising that advanced life like us exists?
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. On theism, I would contend that it's not particularly implausible that God might create a world such as ours, inhabited by embodied, conscious moral agents that interact with their environment, molding and shaping their character, growing in morally significant ways, engaging in moral decision making and so forth, that's not especially surprising. Supposing theism is true, whereas on the falsity of theism, that is to say, on the assumption of atheism or naturalism, it's wildly surprising that we would experience a world such as ours inhabited by conscious, embodied moral agents that can engage in moral decision making such as ourselves. And in view of that top heavy likelihood ratio, I would contend that the fact that we do, in fact, find ourselves in such a world is strong evidence for theism over atheism.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: Okay, so not surprising in the least, but wildly surprising, depending on how you're looking at this scientifically. Well, take us back to chemistry class for a bit. Remind us, what are the nonmetal elements and why are they so special when it comes to life?
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Sure. So the nonmetal atom, specifically carbonous hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, make up the material substances of the cell. And these are really the only atoms, that is, the nonmetal atoms that one could use to build a biochemical system. And there is a good reason for this, namely, that they form strong, stable, directional chemical bonds. And critically, it's these covalent bonds that give molecules with shape. And it is shape that really is the essence of biochemistry.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that's my next question. Shape. It's all about shape in biochemistry. Now, how do the nonmetal atoms literally allow for the shape of life?
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Sure. So carbon, as you probably know, is the backbone of all organic molecules, and it has an ability to form four covalent bonds. And this allows it to create a complex chains and rings and so forth, which provides the structural framework for DNA and for proteins, for cellular membranes, etcetera. And its ability to create these, to create double and triple bonds, gives rise to a large diversity of organic compounds. Nitrogen has an ability to form three covalent bonds, and this allows for the formation of diverse molecular structures as well.
The carboxyl group, which is CoOH, which is found in amino acids, fatty acids, has a planar structure with the oxygen atoms participating in both covalent and hydrogen bonds. And this contributes to the shape of molecules as well.
[00:05:55] Speaker A: You quote biochemist Charles Tanford saying that the entire nature of life as we know it is dependent on the hydrogen bonded structure of liquid water. So tell us about the hydrophobic force and how it's crucial to the assembly of membranes and proteins.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Sure. So these atoms, the nonmetal atoms that we just talked about have electronegativity, such that the attraction of electrons for hydrogen and carbon is very similar. So this means that you generate, by putting carbon and hydrogen together, nonpolar molecules. So carbon and hydrogen have a similar value for electronegativity, or how strongly atoms pull electrons towards the nucleus. And this means that they're able to share electrons, creating what we call a covalent bond. And since carbon and hydrogen have very similar electronegativity, the electrons are shared equally, and the bond is what we call nonpolar.
But if you put oxygen hydrogen together, you get what we call a polar molecule, where the electrons are shared equally between the atoms that contribute to that molecule. And this is critical to the whole organization of the cell, because it gives you what we call the hydrophobic force, and it's a hydrophobic force that organizes the higher structure of the biological realm. So hydrophobic interactions arise because water molecules prefer to interact with each other rather than with nonpolar substances. And the presence of nonpolar molecules lessens the range of opportunities for water water interaction by forcing the water molecules into ordered arrays around the nonpolar groups. And such ordering can be minimized if the individual nonpolar molecules redistribute from a dispersed state in the water into an aggregated organic phase surrounded by water, and is the hydrophobic force that assembles membranes and proteins. So, in a protein structure, you have the hydrophobic amino acid side chains, which are also known as nonpolar side chains, buried in the interior of the protein, whereas the hydrophilic side chains, that is to say, the polar side chains, are, they make contact with aqueous environment.
And so the hydrophobic force is absolutely crucial for the formation of protein folds, is also essential, of course, for the assembly of the phospholipid bilayer that comprises a cell membrane as well.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: Okay, so a crucial force at work here, dictating the forces of attraction that will be the building blocks of life in the cell.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Is that right? It's a remarkably fortuitous coincidence, then, that the very atoms that give you stable, defined shapes from which you can build macromolecules also give you the hydrophobic force, which is the key to assembling them into higher three dimensional forms. So, nature does not always that coincidence.
And yet, if it wasn't for that coincidence, then life could not exist.
And so it's remarkable coincidence that in our universe, these same atoms that give you molecules with shape from which you can build macromolecules, also happen to give you this hydrophobic force, which is essential for their assembly into higher three dimensional forms. And so this is one of many contributors to the biofriendliness of our universe. And it didn't have to be that way.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: Okay, well lets zoom into one of the nonmetal atoms, in particular carbon. Its the key element of living substances. Its stable, it plays well with other atoms. Its the fourth most abundant element in our galaxy and its able to generate in the high temperature environments of stellar cores. Its one remarkable element. Lets look at three reasons why its uniquely fit for the assembly of the complex macromolecules found in the cell. First, it can form long stable chains of itself. Tell us more about that.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: Sure. So the carbon atom is in several respects uniquely fit for the assembly of the complex macromolecules that we find in the cell. So due to the stability of carbon carbon bonding, only carbon is able to form long polymers of itself, forming long chains or rings, while also bonding to other kinds of atoms. Now, silicon can also form long chains by bonding with itself. But these bonds are significantly less stable than carbon carbon bonds. So Plaxco and gross note that I'm quoting. While silicon, silicon or silicon hydrogen and silicon nitrogen bonds are similar in energy, the silicon oxygen bond is far more stable than any of the other three types. As a consequence, silicon readily oxidizes to silicon dioxide, limiting the chemistry available to this atom whenever oxygen is present. And oxygen is the third most common atom in the universe. End quote. Primo Levy explains that carbon is the only element that can bind itself in long, stable chains without a great expanse of energy. And for life on Earth, the only one we know so far precisely long chains are required. Therefore, carbon is the key element of living substance. End quote.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: All right, now a second reason why it's uniquely fit is that it's tetravalent. Tell us about that.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So this just basically means that each atom can form four covalent bonds with other atoms.
And so you have carbon and it's able to form bonds with four other atoms.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: All right. And third, carbon has a relatively small atomic nucleus. Why is that important?
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
So this entails short bond distances, which allows it to form stable bonds with itself as well as other atoms. And this property is also possessed by the other small nonmetal atoms. In period two, carbon is able to form single, double and triple bonds with other atoms. Nitrogen can also form single, double or triple bonds, and oxygen can form single and double bonds. Now, if you contrast that with nonmetal atoms directly beneath them in the periodic table, specifically silicon, phosphorus, sulfur, which possess larger atomic radii they form such bonds less easily due to multiple bonds having reduced stability.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Okay, so lots of reasons why carbon is a key element here. Now, you write that the strength of organic bonds sits within a goldilocks zone of optimization. Many of us have heard about the just right placement of earth in our solar system and even in our Milky Way galaxy. But what is this Goldilocks zone at the cellular level?
[00:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So, as you said, the strength of these bonds sits within what we might call a Goldilocks zone, meaning that they're neither too strong nor too weak for biochemical manipulations in the cell. So if the strength of those bonds were to be altered by a single order of magnitude, it would make it impossible. It would make impossible numerous biochemical reactions that take place in the cell. If it were too strong, the activation energy needed to break bonds could not be sufficiently reduced by enzymatic activity, where enzymes strain chemical bonds by engaging in specific conformational movements while bound to a substrate. On the other hand, if organic bonds were much weaker, bonds would be frequently disrupted by molecular collisions, and this would render controlled chemistry impossible.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: Okay, so another Goldilocks zone that I had not known about before, but that's really interesting. Now, there's another notable thing about carbon I'd like to ask you about, and that's a special quantum property known as carbon resonance. What is that?
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Sure. So carbon is absolutely essential for life, and it's actually the fourth most abundant element in our galaxy, after hydrogen, helium and oxygen. And a carbon nucleus can be generated by smashing together two nuclei of helium, four to make beryllium eight, which contains four protons and four neutrons, and then adding a further nucleus of helium to generate carbon twelve, which contains six protons and six neutrons. But beryllium is quite unstable and can be expected to break apart into two nuclei of helium in ten to the -16 seconds.
And on occasion, prior to the breaking apart of beryllium, a third helium nucleus collides with beryllium, resulting in a carbon nucleus. And as it happens, the carbon atom possesses a special quantum property called a resonance, which facilitates that process. So a resonance describes the discrete energy levels at which protons and neutrons in the nucleus can exist. And it turns out that the resonance of the carbon atom just so happens to correspond to the combined energy of the beryllium atom and a colliding nucleus of helium. So, in their book, a fortunate universe, physicists Gerrant Lewis and Luke Barnes note that I'm quoting, they say, if there were a resonance at just the right place in carbonous. The combined energy of the beryllium and helium nuclei would result in a carbon nucleus in one of its excited states. The excited carbon nucleus knows how to handle the excess energy without simply falling apart. It's less likely to disintegrate and more likely to decay to the ground state. With the emission of a gamma ray photon, carbon formed, energy release success, end quote. So without this specific resonance level, the universe would contain relatively few carbon atoms. And in 1953, this specific resonance that had been previously predicted by Fred Hoyle was discovered by William Fowler, precisely where Hoyle had predicted it would be. And this special carbon resonance, known as the Hoyle state, which corresponds to the energy levels of the combined beryllium eight nucleus and helium four nucleus, renders the otherwise improbable process of carbon twelve formation feasible and efficient in the high temperature environments of stellar cores. And this delicate balance of energy levels is a remarkable aspect of nuclear astrophysics that allows for the creation of the elements necessary for life. And if it were not for this special resonance, life very probably would not exist in our universe. And this is another one of many, countless features of our universe that just have to be just right for life, in particular, advanced life, to exist in our cosmos.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: So that resonance is sort of pointing to the fine tuning of the carbon atom for advanced life. And as you mentioned, Fred Hoyle spent a lot of time researching carbon, didn't he? He was trying to get to the bottom of why we had an abundance of it, right? I mean, it was a special atom for him, a special element.
Did he satisfy his own research questions in the end, according to what you know?
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Yeah. As I said, his predicted carbon resonance was actually documented, discovered, elucidated by William Fowler, precisely where Hoyle had predicted that it would be.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Well, you quite often state in your writing that you're making a cumulative case. Can you explain to listeners what you mean by that?
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Sure. So if we only had one example of this sort of fortuitous coincidence that makes life possible in our universe, then you might write it off and say, well, it's a lucky coincidence, but it's only a coincidence. Whereas when you have just scores and scores and scores of coincidences like this, and we've only really got revved up in our time together today, there's a lot more, of course, of these coincidences.
Then it becomes, I think, ridiculous to insist that they're all just coincidences or flukes of nature. And so when you consider all of the evidence in aggregate, it seems to me to be a very compelling case that our universe was created or formed with life in mind.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think of, you know, the weight scales idea. Right. If you want to look at this visually, you know, one of these pieces of evidence might not be enough to move that scale, but when you add, you know, piece after piece, line of evidence after line of evidence, it just really starts to move the scale in a very visual way and you can definitely see that. Well, where can listeners learn more about the unique fitness of earth's elements for advanced life?
[00:19:13] Speaker B: Sure. So I definitely refer readers to Michael Denton's privileged species in particular on this topic that we've been talking about today. I would recommend the miracle of the cell is actually my favorite book of Danton's that he's published. And this documents numerous fortuitous coincidences relating to the periodic table of elements that make life, and in particular advanced life, possible in our universe. There are, of course, other books by Denton that discuss other aspects of the environment, of nature that are conducive to life. For example, his book the Miracle of Man synthesizes a lot of this material, the children of light, the wonder of water, firemaker, etcetera. These are all books I would highly recommend you're reading. I think actually this class of teleological argument is one of the strongest, if not the strongest argument for the truth of theism.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And we'll talk next, you and I, about the remarkable properties of water and sunlight, two more of the many features of our planet and the universe that are finely tuned to, to make advanced life possible. You've written on them recently and echoing the work of Michael Denton. So we'll unpack that next. Jonathan, thanks for being with us today.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: Thanks so much.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: Well, you can find Doctor McClatchy's articles on these topics and so much more at his website, jonathanmcclatchie.com. that's Jonathan mcclatchy.com for id the future. I'm Andrew Mcdermotteh. Thanks for listening.
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[00:21:03] Speaker B: Program is copyright discovery institute and recorded.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: By its center for Science and Culture.
