[00:00:04] Speaker A: Id the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
Welcome back to id the Future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. Today, my guest is Doctor Jonathan McClatchy. To continue our ongoing series unpacking the many features of the universe that are finely tuned to allow for advanced life to exist and to flourish. Doctor McClatchy is a fellow and resident biologist at the Discovery Institute's center for Science and Culture. He was previously an assistant professor at Sadler College in Boston, where he lectured biology for four years. McClatchy holds a bachelor's degree in forensic biology, a masters degree in evolutionary biology, a second masters degree in medical and molecular bioscience, and a PhD in evolutionary biology. His research interests include the scientific evidence of design and nature, arguments for the existence of God, and New Testament scholarship. Jonathan is also founder and director of talkaboutdoubts.com dot. Jonathan, welcome back.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: Well, in our last chat, we discussed your articles highlighting the life friendly properties of carbon and other nonmetal atoms. Today were unpacking your coverage of the properties of water and sunlight. Now for some, these topics may sound familiar if theyve read the work of biochemist Michael Denton. And at the end of this episode, well let you know which of Dentons books to read to dive deeper into these amazing examples of the fitness of the planet to accommodate life.
On this podcast, id the future, we try to strike a balance between general discussion of intelligent design and evolution, as well as the more technical aspects of the evidence. I think theres definitely room for both. Biochemist Michael Behe writes that in order to understand the barriers to evolution, we have to bite the bullet of complexity. He also says, to appreciate that complexity, youve got to experience it. Thats why its amazing to have our team of resident scientists on the show regularly to give us a feel for the complexity at the heart of design in biology.
So, Jonathan, lets begin with some discussion of sunlight. First. Now, we can breathe because green plants can photosynthesize, and they can photosynthesize because the right kind of light from the sun is allowed to come through our atmosphere. Tell us more about this process of photosynthesis and why it plays such a crucial role.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. So, as you said, the oxygen that we breathe is generated by this process of photosynthesis that's absolutely essential for our existence. And photosynthesis, of course, takes place in the chloroplasts of green plants.
And it's of course, obviously energized by the light that we receive from the sun.
And remarkably, the radiation emitted by the sun exhibits several remarkable coincidences that are conducive to life. Many forms of radiation make up the electromagnetic spectrum, each having a different wavelength. And within the huge range of the electromagnetic spectrum, there exists a small band of radiation that possesses the right energy levels for photochemistry, that allows us to see visually and also allows for photosynthesis, which is a form of photochemistry.
And this corresponds to the visual band together with the nearest ultraviolet, near infrared wavelengths that are closely adjacent to it. And this band represents such an incredibly small fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum that it's difficult, really to do it justice.
Michael Denton, for example, notes concerning the vastness of the electromagnetic spectrum. He says some extremely low frequency radio waves may be 100,000 km from crest to crest, while some higher energy gamma waves may be as little as ten to the -17 meters across, only a fraction of the diameter of an atomic nucleus.
Even within this selected segment of the entire spectrum, the wavelengths vary by an unimaginably large factor of ten to the 25.
So the visual region of the spectrum represents a minuscule fraction of this lying between wavelengths 380 to 750 nm in length.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And in your articles, you had a couple of interesting ways to kind of put this in a way that helps us to understand how small this tiny fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum is. Can you share one of those?
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Sure. So this is from Michael Denton's work on this subject, which I highly command. He wrote a book called Children of Light, which discusses these anthropically friendly coincidences having to do with the radiation emitted by the sun. And he notes that the right light would be only a few seconds in a time span 100 million times longer than the age of the earth, or a few playing cards in a stack stretching beyond the galaxy of Andromeda, a fraction so small as to be beyond ordinary human comprehension. End quote. So it's a remarkable coincidence then, that nearly half of the radiation emitted by the sun happens to lie within that visual region.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That is truly remarkable. So half of it lies in this tiny band. What about the other half of the sun's radiation? What does that provide?
[00:05:58] Speaker B: So the other half of the sun's radiant output lies principally in another very, very tiny region of the spectrum that is adjacent to the visual region. This is between the wavelengths of 750 to somewhat beyond 2500. This infrared radiation provides about half of the essential heat that's needed to warm the atmosphere of our planet. Denton writes, quote, without it, Earth's entire surface would be a frozen wilderness far colder than the Antarctica. It's thanks to the heat of the sun and to our atmospheric gases absorbing this heat, that water exists in liquid form on Earth's surface, and the average global atmospheric temperature is maintained well above freezing in a temperature range which enables the chemistry of life to proceed, end quote. He concludes that this is a genuine coincidence, as the compaction of solar radiation into the visible and near infrared is determined by a completely different set of physical laws from those that dictate which wavelengths are suitable for life and photosynthesis, end quote. So one might say in response, or as an attempted objection, that, well, perhaps given the sheer number of stars in our universe, which is something like ten to the 24th power, perhaps our sun is just a lucky winner of a cosmic lottery. But in fact, it turns out that most stars emit most of their radiation in the visible infrared region. So this is remarkably fortuitous. Coincidence, of course, is conducive to complex life.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: Well, how does the earth's atmosphere contribute to the ability of plants to photosynthesize?
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Photosynthesis requires that visual light be allowed to penetrate the earth's atmosphere and arrive at the ground and part of the sun's infrared radiation be absorbed in order to warm our planet. To the degree that photosynthesis can happen again, it's a very fortuitous coincidence that Earth's atmosphere not only allows penetration of almost all of the radiation of the visual region, but it also absorbs a significant proportion of the infrared radiation. And this warms the Earth into the ambient range.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Okay, and doesn't our atmosphere also handle the harmful radiation that comes from the sun protection?
[00:08:16] Speaker B: That's exactly right. So our atmosphere also absorbs the dangerous radiation either side of the visual and near information, infrared regions of the spectrum. This protects us from the harmful radiation as well.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: Okay, well, let's bring in the other star of our show today, water. You mentioned in your light article that water is transparent to visual light. Why is that important?
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So we've talked about how light has to be able to penetrate the earth's atmosphere in order to arrive at the ground and there by allow photosynthesis to take place. But another requirement in order for photosynthesis to happen is that this visual light must be able to penetrate water, because the light has to traverse the water in the cell of any green plant in order to arrive at the chloroplasts. And of course, there are plants that are underwater as well.
And indeed, water, whether in its liquid or gaseous or solid form, is transparent to visual light. And so if the water vapor in the atmosphere or the liquid water of the cell absorbed the visual band. There could be no photosynthesis and no aerobic form of life could exist.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we're just going to go down this list of remarkable properties of water so it's less dense in its solid form. Tell us how that's helpful.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah. So, unlike almost all other substances, water actually expands and becomes less dense in its solid form than it is in its liquid form. So ice has an open structure that is sustained by the hydrogen bonds between water molecules. If ice behave like almost all other substances, notable exception being the metal gallium, which also expands on freezing, it would sink to the bottom of the ocean, and the oceans would freeze from the bottom up. And this would lead to much of our planet being permanently encased in ice, since the ice beneath the water would be shielded from the warmth of the sun's rays. But since ice expands upon freezing, it actually insulates the water beneath the surface, and this keeps it in its liquid form. And this property of water is also essential to complex life, both marine life as well as terrestrial life.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I'm just thinking how much we enjoy taking a dip in the ocean and, of course, frozen solid. That wouldn't be pleasant. Well, water is also a universal solvent, and it has an extremely high surface tension. How do those things come into play?
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So water, as you said, is a nearly universal solvent. And this property is absolutely critical to its role in dissolving minerals from the rocks.
Almost all known chemicals dissolve in water to at least some extent. And the solubility of carbon dioxide in water and its reaction with water to yield carbonic acid also promotes chemical reactions with these minerals, which increases their solubility.
And water also has an extremely high surface tension. Secondly, to mercury of any common fluid. And as water is drawn into fissures because of its high surface tension and expands upon freezing, the surrounding rocks are split open, and this confers a greater surface area for chemical weathering.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: Okay, well, I like the way Doctor Denton puts it when he writes that water, by its own intrinsic properties, delivers itself to the land via the hydrological cycle. How is water able to accomplish this?
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Yes. So for life on land to thrive, the dissolved minerals also must be deposited on land, which is made possible by the hydrological cycle, whereby the water from the oceans evaporates into the atmosphere, returns to the grounded rain or snow. The hydrological cycle is itself made possible by water's existence in three states, solid, liquid and gas. In the range of ambient temperatures, the earth's surface and this ability to exist in three different states that the ambient conditions at the earth's surface is unique among all known substances. Were it not for this unique property of water, the landmasses of our planet would exist as a barren desert. So Michael Denton remarks concerning this remarkable property.
The delivery of water to the land is carried out by and depends upon the properties of water itself. Contrast this with our artifactual designs. Where key commodities such as cloves or gasoline must be delivered by extraneous delivery systems such as trucks and trains. Gasoline cannot deliver itself to gas stations, nor closed to clothing stores. But water, by its own intrinsic properties, delivers itself to the land via the hydrological cycle. So it's got its own inbuilt delivery system, so that it not only dissolves the minerals, but then it deposits them to where they are required on the land for. For life to thrive. And it does so by being able to exist in three different states at the ambient conditions that are present on the earth's surface. Specifically as a gaseous state, as water vapor, as well as ice, or solid state, as well as liquid stay, or what we call liquid water.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So if I ever get a delivery brought to my house by a drone, I might think it's pretty cool. But it doesn't hold a can handle to this system that's in place with water in the hydrological cycle. It's really amazing. And I know that some folks have a shower curtain that kind of shows the hydrological cycle. I know we did for a while, and it's a pretty great reminder, especially when you're going in to have a shower. Well, that's the ocean without outside of us. What about the ocean within? We know water is vital to our lives internally as well. What makes it ideal?
[00:14:15] Speaker B: So various properties of water make it an ideal medium for the circulatory system of complex organisms like ourselves.
For example, the 20th century physiologist Lawrence Henderson remarked concerning water's supreme qualities of solvent, he says, it cannot be doubted that if the vehicle of the blood were other than water, the dissolved substances would be greatly restricted in variety and in quantity, nor that such restriction must needs be accompanied by a corresponding restriction of life processes.
Another characteristic of water is that its viscosity is one of the lowest of any known fluid. And the pressure thats needed to pump a fluid increases proportionally with its viscosity. Therefore, if the viscosity of water were significantly increased, it would become prohibitively difficult to pump the blood through the circulatory system.
Denton notes the head of pressure at the arterial end of a human capillary is 35 mercury, which is considerable, about one third that of the systolic pressure in the aorta. This relatively high pressure is necessary to force the blood through the capillaries. This would have to be increased massively if the viscosity of water were several times higher and is self evidently impossible and incommensurate with any sort of biological pump.
So, given that approximately 10% of the body's resting energy is spent on powering the circulatory system, increasing the viscosity of water to that of olive oil, for example, would present an insurmountable energetic challenge. The viscosity of a fluid is also inversely proportional to its diffusion rate. And so increasing the viscosity of water would have a significant impact on the rate of diffusion from capillaries to the cells of the body.
Water, moreover, has one of the highest specific heat capacities of any known fluid. So by serving to retard the cooling rate, this property conserves water in its liquid form when it comes to contact with air that's below freezing.
Another remarkable feature of water is its evaporative cooling effect. So, as water evaporates from an object surface, the molecules with more kinetic energy escape as a gas, whereas those with lower kinetic energy remain in liquid form. And this serves to reduce the surface temperature.
The evaporative cooling effect of water is, in fact, higher than that of any other known molecular liquid, that is, compounds composed of two or more types of atoms.
This characteristic of water is particularly important for warm blooded organisms when the external temperature is warmer than their core body temperature, and thus the excess heat cannot be radiated out of the environment because the environment is warmer than you are.
Instead, the excess heat is lost through the evaporative cooling effect of water, maximized by numerous sweat glands on the surface of our skin.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Okay, so water really stands out from the crowd with this, this list of amazing properties. Well, you write that nature doesn't always a life friendly environment. You note that there are far more ways the universe could have developed that are non conducive to life than there are life friendly ways. Now, the casual darwinist might retort to that remarkable coincidence by saying something like, well, we're alive, aren't we? So, of course, it developed this way out of all the possible ways, because this way led to life. So, you know, good for a darwinian process, you know, good for natural selection to find a way. Life finds a way, as the character doctor Malcolm quips in the movie Jurassic park.
What's wrong with that argument, though? What are they forgetting? What are they taking for granted?
[00:18:10] Speaker B: Well, it's really difficult to envision really any complexity life form emerging without the existence of photosynthesis on planet earth, without the incredible properties of water that we've observed and so forth. And so it's not just the form of life that happened to evolve by natural selection, but really, if the properties of our universe, the properties of nature, were different, then you couldn't really have any advanced form of life such as ourselves.
And so it seems to me that when you consider all of these coincidences cumulatively, you have a very compelling argument that nature was designed with life in mind, that life was intended in our world.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So there's a reason that life has found a way, in other words, and that that actually leads me to my next question. If we apply a common sense interpretation of the facts, as british astronomer Fred Hoyle put it, and we add up all these examples of the life friendly properties of our planet and the universe that we've been discussing, we start to get a top heavy likelihood ratio in support of intelligent design. How does a bayesian approach to the evidence prove helpful? How does it inspire confidence?
[00:19:39] Speaker B: Yeah, so, on theism, if God exists, it's not particularly implausible that he might create a world inhabited by embodied conscious moral agents that interact with each other, molding and shaping their character and engaging in moral decision making and so forth. That's not particularly surprising supposing that God exists, whereas it is wildly surprising supposing that God does not exist, particularly when you consider all of the fortuitous coincidences that have to line up in order for our universe to be life conducive. And then, of course, there's tremendous improbabilities in the origins of life by natural processes.
And then there's all kinds of improbabilities that compound with that further down the history of life as well. And so its wildly implausible that advanced life forms such as ourselves would exist if God does not exist, whereas it becomes much more probable or much less surprising if God does exist. And so in view of that top heavy likelihood ratio, it overwhelmingly, I would argue, supports the theistic hypothesis.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Right, which is where that confidence comes in. Science cant give us 100% proof of whether God exists or nothing, but we have that likelihood ratio, and that allows us to walk in confidence and also respond to objections and those that would push back and say otherwise.
It sort of gives us a toolkit to inspire confidence. Well, where can listeners learn more about the unique properties of water and sunlight for advanced life?
[00:21:25] Speaker B: Sure. So readers could go to Michael Denton's series of books, the privileged species series. I particularly recommend on this subject, children of light and the wonder of water. The miracle of man also synthesizes a lot of this information and some of the other categories of the prior environmental fitness of nature. So I highly recommend those books to your reading.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: Yeah, well, Doctor McClatchy will be back very soon to continue this seemingly endless series, unpacking the myriad of features of our planet in the universe that are finely tuned and uniquely fit to make advanced life possible. I mean, honestly, we could be at this until we both retire, you know, just coming back and delivering class of evidence after class of evidence. So it's quite amazing. But anyway, stay tuned for more from Doctor McClatchy. Jonathan, thanks so much for your time.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Well, you can find Doctor McClatchy's articles on these topics and so much more at his website, jonathanmcclatchy.com. that's jonathanmcclatchie.com for id the future I'm Andrew McDermott, thanks for listening.
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[00:22:45] Speaker B: Is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: Its center for Science and Culture.
