[00:00:04] Speaker A: Id the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Welcome to id the future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. Well, today I'm joined by Doctor John D. Wise to discuss his journey from atheism to Christianity and in particular the part that Michael Behe and other intelligent design scholars on that transformation.
Doctor Wise received his b's from Lancaster Bible College in 1990 and his MA and PhD in philosophy from the University of California, Irvine. He has taught philosophy at the University of California, Irvine, East Stroudsburg, University of Pennsylvania, Grand Canyon University and American Intercontinental University. He currently teaches for the University of Arizona global campus. He's the author of two books, through the Looking Glass, the imploding of an atheist professor's Worldview and Paradise Lost, the Machinery of Evil. Doctor Wise and his wife Jennifer produced two podcasts, the Christian Atheist and Simple Gifts. Doctor wise, welcome to Id of the future.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Oh, thank you, Andrew. It's great to be here. I appreciate your having me on.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I first learned about you by discovering your podcast, the christian atheist. Can you tell us how that got started and what youre working to accomplish in that?
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Sure.
I became an atheist after a christian upbringing in 1996 when I was at graduate school at the University of California, Irvine, and taught philosophy after getting my PhD for the next several years. And then I had in 2019, what I tend to call borrowing from Albert Einstein, my Annas Mirabilis, because in 2019, my world turned upside down.
I was pretty much convinced through my years of atheism that I would never, ever change again. That was where I stood, and nothing would change it.
But in 2019, several really important things happened in my life. My wife of 27 years died. I lost my full time job. And suddenly one day, I found myself no longer able to sustain my atheism, and I wound back the clock to agnosticism. And then later in the year, I converted to Christianity again, married the woman of my dreams, and at the end of the year, my mother died. So it was a year full of all kinds of tumultuous things happening largely at the same time. And the most important of them all was my return to Christ. It was motivated largely through meeting and then ended up marrying my wife.
And at that point, I realized I'd wasted 25 years of my life on a faith that was not sustainable and I needed to serve my godd. And so we sort of put our heads together and thought maybe the best thing we could do is reach out to atheists and let christians know that faith in God, faith in Christ are completely rational and sustainable in the world today.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Okay. Wow.
What incredible things you've gone through recently to start off this podcast.
And you've been doing it since 2019, correct?
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Yep. So it's my fifth year. Yep.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Wow. Do you. Are you the type that takes it in seasons, or do you just do it on an ongoing basis?
[00:03:50] Speaker A: We. I don't think I would have naturally fallen into seasons, but it does seem to fall apart that way. This season is radically different from anything we've done before. I started out largely as an apologetics ministry. I don't really even think of it as that anymore. I'm much more centered given what's happened in the end of last year and the beginning of this year in God's word itself and in understanding how all of that fits together for the world we're living in currently for christians and finding some way to reverse all of the anti God things that have actually invaded the church. So that's something that's on our heart pretty deeply right now.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: Okay, well, you speak of your atheist quarter century in some of these episodes. Did you grow up in a religious environment, or was it something you came to on your own? And when did you become an atheist? What led you to that conclusion?
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Okay. I grew up in a divided home, actually. My mother was a strong Bible believing Christianity. My father was essentially an agnostic. He was, interestingly enough, at Pearl harbor when it was hit. I lost my father in 95. I miss him deeply. But that divided home created sort of a divided intellect, a divided sense of values, even. I always told people when I was growing up, while I was still a Christian, a young Christian, that I got my faith from my mother and my ethics from my father because he was very rigid, not harsh, but he had very strong ethical senses. And I fell very easily into connecting both of those two together, my mothers faith and my fathers ethical rationality. And he was an extremely rational, intelligent man. And so those two sort of structured my life growing up. And when I got out of high school, I decided I wanted to be a pastor. Went to Lancaster Bible College for four years, got my bachelor's degree. By the time I graduated, I had already gotten to the point where I was concerned that I was trying more than anything else in my christian walk to convince myself that it was true. I began to study philosophy really deeply in Bible college with an amazing professor at Lancaster Bible College by the name of Bob Willey. Doctor Bob Willey. Amazing guy. Learned a lot from him. But by the time I graduated, I was well on my way to agnosticism. And I didn't think being a pastor as an agnostic was a very good move.
And so I decided I would pursue in graduate school philosophy. By the time I had gotten into, I think it was the beginning of my second year, I was walking across campus and I remembered Cs Lewis's story, the magician's nephew, in which he talks about a wood between the worlds. And it seemed to me that agnosticism was like a wood between the worlds. It kind of calls out for us to make a decision, are you going to believe in God or are you not going to believe in God? So I spent the first 25 years of my life believing and I thought, okay, so I cant believe anymore, I cant sustain my belief. So what am I going to do? Sit here on the fence the rest of my life? No, ill decide. And so I looked at science and what science had to say, and I said to myself, I'm going to pursue truth no matter where it takes me, and I want knowledge, not faith. And what's it going to take to do that? Does that mean I have to abandon my faith in God? So be it. And so one day, walking across camp, I made the decision. I'm an atheist and I never looked back for 25 years.
So that's how it came about.
[00:07:43] Speaker B: Okay, so brutally honest with yourself, but that was a good thing in service of pursuing the truth.
When did you first come across the theory of intelligent design? What was your initial reaction to it?
[00:07:56] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I remember in the nineties, Behe's book coming out, didn't think much of it at the time. And then I remember the Dover school district controversy in the courts where he ended up losing. I wasn't impressed by intelligent design, not that I didn't find it having something intelligent to say. Of course I did came from a christian background, so I respected christians. I just thought of them as kind of quaint.
They believed something that was no longer rationally sustainable in our world. So it's kind of cute that they want to hold onto it through science. But it seemed to me the conclusion that most of the scientific world and most of the popular science press and most of the what, the dominant media at the time just thought of behe's book as a mask for an underlying christian worldview. And it was just trying to sneak it back into the schools. And so without giving it much real credence, without really looking into the evidence myself, I dismissed it. I dismissed it without giving it a chance.
However, I had already read an awful lot of, in fact, I've read multiple times. Thomas Kuhn's book, the structure of scientific Revolutions.
And so I had a lot of things going on in my head at the same time that oftentimes I think I was not completely aware of myself, but I began to see that there was something involved in deciding one way or the other that was more than just looking at the evidence.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Intriguing. Well, I'm glad you mentioned that book. You know, Thomas kun's landmark 1962 book, you actually title one of your recent episodes of the christian atheist around the title he uses, you call it the structure of a scientific revolution. Of course, talking about your own revolution, I thought that was, that was cool. But in that episode, you discuss embarking on a program of scientific research with your wife that has included a ton of things, plants and birds, archaeology, astronomy, mathematics, microbiology, and genomics. I mean, you guys were going back to school, in a sense, and during this research, you stumbled on the revolution occurring in microbiology, the very stuff that Behe was tapping into in previous work. That discovery of micro machines and even the simplest living cells boasting an engineering genius that vastly exceeds what we can do. Well, what prompted you to start all this scientific research, and how has it ultimately impacted your worldview?
[00:10:47] Speaker A: My personality type is extremely open to experience, and so all through my life, I have been fascinated by everything that comes my way. And that didn't stop when I went out of Bible college. I started to study science like crazy. I wanted to know everything that was out there. As I said a few moments ago, I was looking for knowledge, not faith. And so I wanted to know everything. I wanted it all sewn up. I wanted to know that I had the truth finally and for sure. And so all through those years of atheism, I began to study everything I could get my hands on. I read every philosopher that I could find. I read all the science texts I could find because of my deficiency in mathematics. I didn't understand all of the science I would have liked to have understood. I struggle with that still today. My wife is quite good with math, and she's tried to teach me, and I think I'm a lost cause. But in any case, I gave myself to all of that for all of that time. And when I came back to Christ, I found out that I married a woman who is just as fascinated by everything as I am. And so we together began studying all of these things. 2019 forward. We read book after book after book after book.
I kept track of them for a while, but it became so massive, we just got rid of the whole list. So we studied all of those things together, and we've been studying all of those things together for a long time. But I never really looked at the microbiological revolutions going on. When we started, the christian atheist and I came back to Christ, I was what I called considered myself a theistic evolutionist. At that point, evolution seemed just like the unavoidable answer to me, and therefore I came back to Christ. But nothing changed in terms of my scientific outlook.
It wasn't until the end of last year, the beginning of this year, it's that recent that Jenny said, look, you just gave an answer in an interview that I'm having real problems with. I'd responded to a student who asked about evolution and I said, well, yeah, there's no problem with evolution, it's completely rational. Those who deny it in the science community aren't really looking at the evidence.
And Jenny said, I can't believe you said that. And I found out that she's been, had been slowly over those five years, four years we spent together having problems with some of the issues that I was presenting. Now, she comes from a background non Christian at all. Before she came to Christ in the nineties, she came to Christ about when I left, and she taught all of her children basically intelligent design material from the time they were kids on up. So she knew the material far better than I did. And at that point we decided to look into it together.
And slowly but surely, as I began to look at the complexity of the cells and the stuff that has come out recently and what scientists have come to understand since opening Darwin's black box, that Michael Behe talked about the structure of the cell, that a belief in evolution is just that, a belief, it's not sustained by the evidence when you look at it carefully. And so that's where it came from, and it's very recent for me. And that's why just this year, the podcast changed radically.
I no longer am willing to put a man's reasoning in front of God's word.
That's the final thing. God is the one who wrote the Bible.
If he said it, I'm trusting it. I've got no reason to doubt anymore. And so intelligent design is the obvious route to science for me as a Christian. And I found nothing but more confirmation the more I've learned.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Now, you mentioned already Lehigh University biochemist Michael Beheveden, and the fact that you knew about his book Darwin's black box, and all the flak it was getting when it came out in the, in the nineties, did you return to Mike Behe's work, his, his newer books in this big research project that you've been engaged in?
[00:15:09] Speaker A: I have not. I've. I've listened to some of Michael Behe's stuff on YouTube, and I was aware of some of it even before I turned back to Christ.
But I haven't specifically looked at his thing. But his notion of irreducible complexity rang clear in my mind as I began to study this material this year.
The more I looked at it, the more I said, oh, my goodness. Michael Behe talked about the bacterio flagellum and the cascade of the blood cells and the amazing complexity of the immune system.
I thought, okay, so those are individual things. But when I started looking at what we've discovered, it's not just a matter of a few individual things in the cell that are hard to explain. It's not just a few things that are irreducibly complex. It is life itself. It's just not explainable in terms of small individual changes that have slowly accreted over billions of years to yield life. Life itself is such that there is no way. It just happened. I can't sustain it anymore. And interestingly, of course, I was aware, being a philosopher, you're a philosopher as well.
I was aware that Michael Behey's idea of irreducible complexity isn't a new concept. It's been around for a long time. It's been part of the arguments for the existence of God from the middle ages all the way back to the christian fathers. But in any case, one of my favorite people to talk about it was a paper by Michael Polanyi back in 1967, the year after I was born. And that paper is called life's irreducible structure.
And in it, Polanyi says, if all men were exterminated, this would not affect the laws of inanimate nature. But the production of machines would stop.
And not until men arose again could machines be formed once more.
Some animals can produce tools, but only men can construct machines.
Machines are human artifacts made of inanimate material, and the cell is full of them. We didn't make them. Who did? Michael Behe was right. He was dead on. God bless Michael Behe. He's put science back on a rational foundation. And we should be listening more carefully, not only to what he says, but to other intelligent design scientists. And there are many of them out there. Their voices aren't heard well, but they're there. And maybe we could get this whole structure of science and our world back on track.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: No, that's, that's some great insight. Appreciate your sentiment regarding Michael Behe.
Yeah. And all the material that he's been writing since Darwin's black box, all the way up to his new one. Darwin devolves, you know, showing that the evolutionary process is, is devolutionary in nature. Not, not. It doesn't build up so much as people claim it does. Yeah.
Well, let's talk about a little bit about why it's so difficult to come out of a darwinian perspective. And I know you have some good experience here. I liked this acknowledgement in your podcast. You said this when our scientific knowledge was extremely limited, evolution took on the appearance of plausibility, even if only because it stood within a broader set of assumptions. In the heady atmosphere of hegelian thought, it allowed us to make sense of a world in which materialist assumptions ruled and justified our desire to be our own masters. We knew so little about genetics and the machinery of life. Like narcissists, we fell in love with our own reflected image, the product of our minds gazing imaginatively into a crystal ball. We forgot that evolution was a theory, a product engineered by a human mind.
I really like that. So why is it so hard for people to pull out of that? Is it, is it a loyalty? Is it a blindness? Is it a laziness intellectually? What is it? Or is it all the above?
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's all the above. I think. I think if I were to summarize it simply, and all of the things that you said are important, but I think we live in a world in which the ultimate authority is conceived to be science.
Scientism has become the ruling paradigm of our culture, our world, especially in the west.
And we look to them to give us the answers, as people of faith in the past used to look to the Bible. And so if science says it, we assume it on the basis of authority, and that's the structure of our world. It was my era problem. It really was. It's like, okay, Michael Behe says that, but the scientific community doesn't accept it, so I don't even have to look into it.
So we no longer think independently. We accept things on authority. In fact, that's kind of the nature of humanity, large scale. We tend to accept things on authority. And the authority today is conceived by almost everyone to be the scientific community. So what they say goes, we don't question it. And I think that's the underlying reality.
Speaking spiritually, I think there's probably forces that want it to be exactly that.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, that's good insight. It is such a hard thing to pull out of. And in fact, in recent episodes, I've been discussing how some scientists, even mainstream evolutionary biologists and such, are coming to this point where they have this eureka moment, I call it, where they suddenly realize that the adaptability of a species is not something we would credit Darwin with or a darwinian process, but it's actually built in engineering.
And when you flip that switch and you're able to say, wait a minute, that is when you can come out of such a strong perspective.
Yeah, it's quite amazing. Have you known or experienced professors and scientists around you who have been able to have that Eureka moment and step out of the darwinian framework?
[00:22:06] Speaker A: I wish I had kind of when my wife died back in, or she got sick back in like 2013, and I sort of stepped out of the university community in terms of actual brick and mortar schools, and I've been teaching online ever since. And so I really have not had a lot of interaction with other members of the academic community. So I would love to have been involved in that. I don't want to go back to it anymore. I'm very happy doing what I'm doing now. So I wish I had a platform to, like, address and talk with them. But I also know how difficult it is to break out of a community like that, because as an atheist myself, it wasn't. It's not just a matter of hearing the other side.
You have to find some way to break through to an openness to hearing. And when everybody around you has already bought the essential structure that precludes any sort of intelligence design, any sort of intelligent design, any sort of supernatural agency, it takes something pretty incredible, like you said, a eureka moment to break through that and getting people to that point. I don't see it happening too often, although it has. If you listen to something like side B podcasts that it talks about atheists converting to Christianity, there's quite a bit of it going on. And that's exciting, but I personally haven't seen it. I'm hoping our podcast is having a good influence, but I don't hear a lot about it, not a lot of.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: Feedback coming right now. When did you put out your books? Through the looking glass and paradise lost?
[00:23:57] Speaker A: They've been over the last two or three years, essentially. So if anybody wants to hear my story, there's two ways of doing it. You can get my book through the Looking Glass on Amazon, or you can listen to the podcast in which I essentially do the same thing as I do in the book. So I don't want anyone to waste their money on the book if they can get it from the podcast for free. Use your money to support God's work in your life. But I've had a lot of requests while I was doing the podcast for something simpler to follow. And the books, because they're books, allow people to sort of more slowly process the rather dense content of the podcasts. So in both cases, through the Looking glass and Paradise Lost, they are supplemented podcasts. So you can do better with a book than you do on a podcast because you're speaking. So I can add details and make it a little more polished. So both of them are that, but you can find the content online in my podcast for both books.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: Well, it's nice that you've put out your story in both forms. You're speaking it in the podcast form and also in book form for those who still enjoy that kind of thing.
Well, let's just go back. Just one more question on just the ingrained nature of the darwinian perspective in science and in the public square. In a follow up episode of the Christian Atheist, you note that in the decades following Darwin's publication of origin of species, his theory of evolution by natural selection gained near universal acceptance as a compelling and rational story. You put it this way. Behind the veil of ignorance, Darwin's theory could flourish, gain converts, and propagate unrefuted. But if we use Darwin's own criterion of falsifiability, and we've talked about that on this podcast, you know, if it could be demonstrated, you know, that whole quote, if we use his own criterion to falsify his own theory, would his theory still stand today in light of all the evidence we have for the complexity and design at the heart of biological life, you've come to the conclusion that that answer is a resounding no, right?
[00:26:23] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: What are some of the most compelling lines of evidence you've come across? Those that helps convince you to change your mind?
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah, this is a fantastic question because it's fairly fresh in my mind. I am a neophyte. In studying all of this stuff, Jenny remembers everything because she taught it to her seven kids growing up. But basic health information is way in my background, way in my rearview mirror. And so even talking about the sex cells and all the other things, I had to play catch up from ground zero and build up again. So it's fresh in my mind. And I remember a few of those, as you said, eureka moments that struck me and one of the things I remember was the mitotic spindle. When I looked at the mitotic spindle, that is when cells divide and the cell structures have to separate, you have to replicate all the DNA. So you have the replication, then you have the genetic material reforming into the chromosomes, and then the chromosomes lining up, and all of them getting sort of lassoed by the microtubules, and then the two ends of the microtubules being pulled apart, and then they pull them apart, and the cells divide. And the dance that is going on there is so amazingly precise and complex without almost any errors going on.
And I think to myself, yeah, this just happened by slow little changes over billions of years.
And then on top of that, when you've got the problem with chirality in abiogenesis, like life coming to be, and then you have a scientist like Eugene Koonin, who contemplates the possibility that life could have gotten over two major humps in forming the cell. And the conclusion he comes to, and he's a committed evolutionary biologist, the conclusion that he came to is that the possibility of that happening is one in ten to the 1018.
Okay? So that's when you. When scientists calculate the number of elementary particles, atoms in the universe, they say there are ten to the 80, and this is a factor of how many times beyond that, ten to the 1018.
So it's, like, unbelievably improbable. And, of course, his answer is, well, then what we have to do is look at the recent advances in theoretical physics that postulate an eternally expanding multiverse and I an infinity of universes. And it's inevitable that under those conditions, one of them will evolve life. And using the weak version of the anthropic principle, we just happen to be on that one.
And that takes a lot of faith.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The fine tuning, the complexity, the intricacy, the design, it's like the more you. The closer you get to it, the more amazing it seems to you.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: And the amazing complexity is also shown by the absolute fine tuning of all the parts coming together in just the right way and almost never making a mistake in replication. It's like, okay, so if that's the case, if it can error check its own processes of replication. So when you get a mutation in a cell, how likely is it that that's going to bypass the correcting structures? So it's just.
It just doesn't hold together.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, well, and in his book, in Darwin's black box, Beh actually says, look, if you want to understand these arguments for intelligent design, you first have to wrestle with. You have to experience the complexity. If you can't get into the complexity, somehow, you're just going to stand back and it's going to be very easy to say, oh, yeah, evolution could have done that, you know?
And so he encourages people. He invites people into that complexity. And I think you've had a feast of it recently, you and your wife.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Yes. The problem is, as you just said, ignorance abounds. And because so many people don't know what's going on in the modern microbiological revolution, they can still hold on to the picture of evolution, just like Darwin could under the veil of ignorance at his time. So we still don't know. The vast majority of people still don't know what the cell looks like inside. And I think, forgive me if I'm being overly pessimistic or conspiratorial here, I think that the scientific community has an interest in keeping it that way.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. A vested interest, and one they've been leaning on for a long time, which, again, is a reason why it's so hard to pull out of that. But thanks to your work and to the work at Discovery Institute, we're trying to break that mold. We're trying to reach people with this amazing complexity and intricacy and design.
So really, at the end of the day, it sounds like you were aware of some of the arguments for intelligent design, but they didn't. They didn't flip you until you saw how modern science was confirming those arguments, the arguments of the intelligent design theorists. Is that, is that a fair assessment?
[00:32:25] Speaker A: It is, in one sense, that acknowledging the predictions of a theory and where they take us allows us to falsify or quasi verify a theory. At least say, okay, this seems to be accounting for the evidence, but I'm coming from an atheistic background, and there's always something more going on in any sort of conversion process than just a matter of evidence and rationality. For me, it's not that I didn't know plenty.
At the end of my atheist experience, I had gone through all of the arguments for the existence of God. I knew most of the science, not everything, obviously. There's some other things I needed to know that I learned this year, and I'm sure there's a whole lot more that I need to know. But at that point, before I become a Christian again, I knew almost everything that I knew after I became a Christian again. But there was something else there. And I think it's as I've examined this issue carefully through the christian atheist, and we have about 150 episodes out now.
There is a value structure that motivates choice.
And choice is not just a matter of evidence and rationality. There's something else there. Can I put my finger on it? Not exactly. But I do know that if you're going to try to convert someone, you're not going to do it. You need God's help. God's going to ultimately do it. But conversion is difficult, and you've got to be willing to absolutely turn around. That is, reject one view and grab another one. And that happens in two ways, gradually, and then suddenly there's that reference to that. Oh, I try to think of the author, Ernest Hemingway. How did you go bankrupt? He said two ways, gradually and then suddenly. And it seems to me as though that's how it happens. So never think that when you're talking to someone and giving them a different perspective on goddesse and life and reality from a christian perspective, that you're not contributing something important because they might not come for many years. It took me 25 years to turn back to Christ. And then it happened quickly, really quickly. It was a rapid turnaround. And I think that's why it's called a repentance. You turn and you look the other direction. Plato says that in the Republic book eight, that education is really turning away from what is false towards what is true, and that's repentance.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great insight on how it can happen gradually and suddenly, the turning away from one perspective and be fully on the road to another one. Really appreciate that look that you have. Well, final question for you today, John. As you note in your work, you've been seeking truth for decades as an atheist and as a Christian, what advice would you give to those listening to this episode who consider themselves atheists?
[00:35:48] Speaker A: Boy, I appreciate this question in a way that you have no idea, because I learned a lot through the christian atheist talking with atheists online, arguing back and forth, and trying to analyze my own atheism and understand it better.
So a couple things.
To those of you who are listening, who are atheists, I charge you to be skeptical again, you think you have a corner on skepticism, you don't. Try being skeptical again. That is turning back to an agnostic position.
Try being skeptical. Second, acknowledge human ignorance.
We don't know much of anything. And stop having to have everything sewn up.
That was one of my errors as an atheist. I wanted to know things. That is, I wanted them to be beyond reasonable doubt. Everything that I knew I wanted to have it sewn up.
You never get it.
And that is one of the major turning points. When you recognize it, not just say it, lots of atheists will say it, really believe it. That human beings are fundamentally ignorant, limited creatures who don't know.
Thirdly, stop taking things on authority.
You think you don't take anything on authority, but the vast majority of atheists I know, including myself, took almost everything we believed on authority.
And using that word belief, that's my last point. Most importantly, as an atheist, stop lying to yourself that you uniquely don't have faith, because if you were like that, you would be the only human being on the face of the earth that doesn't.
Faith is a human universal because we are fundamentally limited, ignorant creatures.
Atheism does not make you unique.
It makes you just another believer in an established doctrinal community. Try being skeptical again.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: Great advice there. I appreciate that very much. Well, if people want to tap into the christian atheist and your other work so they can get to your podcast through pod dot link slash the christianatheist, does that sound right?
[00:38:27] Speaker A: That sounds right. And we also have a YouTube channel as well. Just look up the christian atheist.
I would love to have you as a subscriber. We're at 1075 now on YouTube, so I would love to have a lot more and spread the word. We also our second podcast, simple gifts. I read classic material on there, CS Lewis. What I can get away with of CS Lewis, which isn't much. I read a significant amount from, let's see, the everlasting man by GK Chesterton and a lot of american classics and literary classics I'm currently reading, making an effort to read the entire Bible onto simple gifts. So if you want to listen to the Bible being read by someone who is absolutely fascinated and in love with it, check us out.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's been great to hear your story and to see how the arguments for intelligent design have affected you along that course. And of course the great work of Michael Behe and others.
Great conversation. Thank you very much Doctor wise, for coming on and perhaps we'll engage in this another time.
[00:39:38] Speaker A: Thank you, Andrew. This has been fantastic. I appreciate your work. I appreciate the work of the Id Institute and all the people you have working for you. I've learned a lot myself and I've actually even put out another episode in response to something, someone you interviewed just this last episode, so. Yep. So I appreciate it a lot. It's been a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.
[00:40:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. Anytime. Well, for id the future I'm andrew Mcdermott. Thanks so much for listening.
[00:40:09] Speaker A: Visit
[email protected] and intelligentdesign.org dot this program is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by its center for Science and Culture.
