[00:00:00] Speaker A: So there is a rule that everything which ends has necessarily a beginning. So this is terrible for the materialists, you see, because for decades all the scientific studies have been trying to get out of, to get out of this difficulty.
ID the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: What can science tell us about the existence of God?
Well, a lot more than you might imagine.
Since the 16th century, a scientific worldview has been brewing called materialism, as a host of scientific discoveries and theories sought to explain all of life and the universe by reference to unguided chance processes, and in doing so, ridding humanity of any need for God.
But the worldview of materialism is increasingly at odds with the latest scientific discoveries of the last hundred years.
Today, I invite you to join me as I continue my conversation with engineer Michel Belaure, co author with Olivier Bonassi of the book the Science, the Evidence, now available in a new English translation.
Published in French in 2021, the book is a number one bestseller in France, Spain and Italy and has sold over 400,000 copies.
The book presents a wide ranging case for the existence of God by drawing on discoveries across physics, cosmology, biology and human consciousness.
Now let's jump back into the conversation with Michel. Now, speaking of evidence, one of the large classes of evidence you discuss in the book is the evidence that the universe had a beginning, as you've mentioned. Now, you start with the thermal death of the universe, which sounds ominous, but it's actually a good place to start when you're talking about, you know, the evidence for the beginning of the universe because it has ramifications for us now and in the past.
You know, the, the heat death of the universe is often referred to as sort of a, a cosmic arrow of time, or at least it kind of points to that. That was Arthur Eddington's words, the arrow of time. And all you got to do is go back from there, you know, so how can looking forward to the universe's eventual demise help us understand how the universe came into existence?
[00:02:30] Speaker A: The first point is a philosophical point on which everybody agree. And it's very important there also to understand that, well, that that point is that if the universe had an absolute beginning sometime, then there is a creator God, because everybody agree on the Parmenides principle. Parmenides was a Greek philosopher living 2,500 years ago in Greece, of course, and Parmenides said it was in Latin, ex nilo nil, which means from nothing, nothing can come. Out of nothing, nothing can come. And I think that absolutely all the philosophers today and scientists Materialists or believing in God, they all agree on this principle. And there is an immediate consequence of that. It is that materialist they have to believe that in one way or the other, our universe has never had an absolute beginning for them. It is necessary to believe that in a way or another our universe is eternal.
And so this is very important to understand. This is a key, it's almost one of the most important key of everything.
So what happened which has been incredible is that during the 20th century, more or less 5, 6 or 7 evidence that our universe cannot be eternal have been appearing surging from science.
So as you mentioned, the first evidence was during the 19th century a new science which is not very well known, but very important. Thermodynamics and thermodynamic is very simple, but very revolutionary at that time, because thermodynamics says that everything wears out, everything will have an end. So for example, our sun, which is 4 billion years old, will die in 5 billion years old.
So our sun is chuck a tank of gasoline. It's hydrogen, but it's the same. So it's a tank of gasoline. And when the gasoline is finished, then the star will become dark and cold and one star after the other will. They will have all go to the to their end. And in billion of billions of years, a very long time. True, but it doesn't change anything. On the conclusion, in a long time all our universe will be dark and cold. Cold with a very low density. We can say almost empty.
So everybody agree on the thermal death on the universe.
So you, you can see immediately that it's very important because what ends has necessarily a beginning. And it's a very simple analogy. If you watch your chimney with a fire during winter, you can see that the logs wood in, in your chimney is turning into dust. And you can predict that in one or two hours your fire will be finished, will be cold. And when you say that, you're true. But there is another consequence which is very important. When you see your fire burning well, is that you were there or someone was there a few hours ago to start it, because it had been started an infinite time ago, it would be finished since a very long time.
So there is a rule that everything which ends has necessarily a beginning. So this is terrible for the materialists, you see, because for decades all the scientific studies have been trying to get out of, to get out of this difficulty.
So well, we, we are not going to get into each.
If people are interested, they will read our book. In our book we have been explaining how so many top scientists, including Einstein at the beginning they had difficulties to accept thermodynamics. But after a certain time everybody agreed that thermodynamics was true and the second principle was true.
And even Einstein at the end of his life said it was probably the most important discovery of all time.
So that was the first shock to the materialism belief.
The second shock is much more well known from the general public. It is the expansion of the universe and the Big Bang that was a shogun shock. And the first thing that we must observe is that the question of the expansion of the odiverse, which is bringing an evidence of the beginning of the universe is completely independent from the thermal death. It has nothing to do. This is what makes the strength of these different evidence.
So we all know that after the discovery of the Big Bomb, which has been confirmed in 1963, all the materialists, they were hoping there would be a Big Crunch, which is that after a certain time the universe would go back and then exploding again and Big Crunch and Big Bang and Big Crunch. But this was disproved in 1998. And then after they hoped that perhaps there was another Big bong before the Big Bong, there was another universe. And perhaps there could be an infinite series of universe before our universe. But very interestingly, in 2003, which is really yesterday, three American scientists, Bord Gut and Vilenkin, discovered that it was impossible scientifically.
And this is a theorem of Gutboard and Villenkin. And in Phoenix can perhaps there has been a series of Big Bomb, which is singularities in scientific words, but an infinite series is not possible. So we are coming back all the time to the fact that at some point there has been an absolute beginning. So the last possibility for the materialist today is to say, well, perhaps our universe will end. But it doesn't prove anything because there are billion of universe and one is starting, one is ending and other are there. And so it doesn't prove anything.
So this is the position of the materialist today, except that it is important to know that there is not the same, the single, the smallest argument in favor of multiverse, because we will never see anything of it if they exist. So we don't know. It's just a pure hypothesis.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah, not to mention violating Occam's razor, because you're, you're, you're having to dream up, you know, multiple things to fit the reality that you have.
And it's also interesting to note that this primordial Big Bang event also marked the beginning of physical time. As well. So if science confirms that time, space and matter had an absolute beginning, what does that say about the potential cause of the universe? I mean, you know, they're running around in circles, as you say, the materialists trying to figure this out. But, you know, what does it point to?
[00:10:28] Speaker A: This. This is why it was so unpleasant, of course, for the materialist scientists, because if time, matter and space are linked, as Einstein demonstrated very well, if they are linked, it means that before that there was no space, no time, and no matter.
So no matter we understand no time, perhaps we understand a little bit, but no space.
It's very weird. It's very. For our spirit. It's very weird.
So only a cause which is not from space, matter can have done that. So we are coming to a cause which is. It's pointing out to a cause which is another cause. What. What spirits and an almighty mind. Because this cause has been able to do all the universe, which is huge. So for us, it's clear this cause has a name. And this name, the name of this cause is God.
Voila. So the cause has can hardly been seen as material or special or whatever.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think you do allude to in the book the fact that, you know, what. What else could have been before the big bang but information, you know, And I think that lines up with a lot of lines of inquiry in the intelligent design research community right now. You know, you have Richard Sternberg looking at the immateriality of the genome, the information that lies beyond the physical portions of the genome. And so it makes a lot of sense that to, you know, what was there before? Well, it was information. And where does information come from? A mind, you know, and so we keep coming back to the. This, this original source, even before the universe was a thing. Well, another line of evidence you unpack in the book is the fine tuning not only of planet Earth to harbor life, but the fine tuning of the entire universe. Now I'm quoting from your book here. The universe now looks like a big setup, an incredibly precise piece of machinery whose every part shows stunning fine tunings of design.
Complex cogs that mesh together, miraculously creating the conditions necessary for the existence and functioning of the whole.
Now, I like the analogy in the book of prying open the case of the massive watch of the universe, the to marvel at the delicate fine tuning that keeps it running. That's a. That's a nice analogy, you know, and that's literally what we're doing. You know, the book calls the fine tuning unlikely, ultra precise and extremely Sensitive. Now, what's your favorite part of the fine tuning argument and why was it important to include in your book?
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Well, the fine tuning is, is a new shock which has come after thermodynamic and after the expansion of universe. So it was a new shock and it was a terrible shock because very simply said, our universe is built upon more or less certain numbers, 20 to 30 numbers. Some of these numbers like the speed of light. We know it's 300,000 kilometers per second. Why is it this figure? Why not a little more? Why not a little less? And if it could be a little more and a little less, what would be the universe if it was a little more and a little less?
So these numbers.
Let's take an example of one.
The speed of expansion of the universe at the very beginning, at the moment, just after the Big Bang. We know this number very well. We know more than 15 decimals of the number, which means 15 digits.
So it's a huge. We know it very, very well. And not only we know that number of that speed, but also we have mathematic model. And we can say what would have happened if one digit would have moved. And we know that if we move the 15th decimal by one more or one less, our universe would not exist anymore. So it's really incredible. And I don't understand how any reasonable mind can say that this is not really a big problem. Voila. Because of course it's really a big problem. And not only the speed of expansion, but all the other numbers are incredibly fine tuned.
And Fred Oig, for example, an atheist who was mocking Lemaitre by calling his theories a big bomb.
When he discovered the fine tuning, he changed his mind and he decided that he would start to believe in God.
So he was an atheist and he changed his mind just because of scientific discoveries. So this is a very important point that we should know.
And so the fine tuning is incredible. So you will tell me what are the materialistic, the materialists, what can they object to that?
Well, they are always the same objection. They say, we agree that our universe is extremely, well, fine tuned.
We agree we cannot discuss that, it's clear. But they are multiverse. There are billion and billion and billion of universe. And we are very lucky. We are in the good one and in the other billion of universe there is nothing. No universe, there is no. No planet, no stars, no life, etc. We are the lucky guys. And all the others there is nothing. This is a science fiction because there is not a single element, not a single argument to believe that there are billion of universe. So, well, now we have a pile of evidence to say that the rational belief is to believe that there is a creator, God or the other side of the scale.
There is just nothing in it. And you have to believe in crazy things like the fact that our universe is eternal when six or seven evidence are proving the opposite. You have to believe that they are multiverse. And so you have to believe in plenty of things, but still a lot of people like it. But it's. We know why, it's for different reason. But it's important for us to know.
How is the, how is the scale today?
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, and there's so much there, there's so many numbers, as you say, and they have to acknowledge the fine tuning, but they have no observable, satisfactory answer to it.
Now, as you note, like halfway through your book, maybe you come up to a chapter called Preliminary Conclusions.
And you could easily end there. You know, you've presented, you've reviewed all the scientific evidence and you've given two relative proofs or lines of evidence that serve to invalidate the hypothesis of a purely material universe. That's the universe had a beginning and the laws of the universe are very favorable to human life.
And as you've noted, they stand independent of one another. So they're not correlated. And the falsity of one would have no impact on the truth or falsity of the other. And that's, that's an important detail. You also note that this revolution in cosmology is extremely recent, with discoveries ranging from the early 20th century all the way up to 20 years ago. So we're not even at the point where everybody knows about these lines of evidence yet.
But the good news is your book doesn't stop there.
In another chapter, you discuss how extremely improbable the journey from inert matter to life is, at least on the assumption of scientific materialism.
And that's, you know, the case for the complexity and the design built into DNA and biology. So why did you choose to include that as well? And how does it help to build your case for an intelligent design or the existence of God?
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Well, I think if we want to have a, to have a panoramic view of the question of the existence of God, we cannot stop to cosmology. We cannot even stop just to science. We have to look at all the fields of knowledge because it is not possible that science points in, points out in the direction of God and philosophy does the opposite. It's not possible.
So if God really exists. All fields of knowledge must point out in the same direction. And this is what our book shows. It's not only science. So coming to the leap from inner matter to life, it's very important because we were talking of Darwin and in 1870 Darwin said that life appeared in a little very hot pond of water at the foot of a volcano, with lightnings and chemical products and waves and rain.
And everybody more or less believed Darwin for one century. And there were experiments in United States to try to, with a primitive soup, primordial soup, to do exactly that.
But all this has stopped because in 1953 and 1958, Crick and some other scientists have discovered something fantastic also, which is DNA, RNA and ribosome. In fact, to make it simple, the density of information in the smallest cell is 1 billion times more dense than in your iPhone.
So to believe that this can appear in a small pound of water, hot water, really, it's, you know, it's a simple cell, is more complicated than an iPhone because not only it's a lot of computers, but there is also very complex software and as you said before, information, because you have the hardware, you have the software and you have the information which are nourishing the software and the hardware. So a cell is more complex than an iPhone. And I don't think that anyone would believe that an iPhone could appear in a pond of water. So now people are looking to, to see life appearing not anymore in a, in a pond of water, but in the galactic space with some reason. Well, I'm not going to enter. But it's a big shock also, because we now understand that the leap between inert matter to life is not a leap, it's a chasm. Nobody knows how it has happened.
And just to continue, as you just said, we cannot stop even with that love. We have to go further and say, what about philosophy and morality?
So perhaps some of your listener or auditors or public will say, well, we don't know much about philosophy, it's complicated, etc. But some chapters are very simple.
Because if you accept, if you want to keep materialism, despite all the evidence that we have given tonight, we are not giving, of course the evidence has been discovered by scientists, we are just telling it. But if you want to keep materialism, philosophy as your main belief, despite all the evidence which have been discovered during the last centuries, it's not enough. You have also to accept something which is terrible, which is that if God does not exist, good and evil do not exist at all. And in that case Everything is permitted. And we go back to a very well known book of Dostoevsky, Brother Karamazov, when Ivan Karamazov says, well, if God does not exist, then everything is permitted.
So the question is, are we ready to live with that?
Are we ready to accept that?
And we discuss that. I think this chapter is really very strong.
And I think that anyone realizes it's not possible, it's not possible to do that. Are we ready to kill children or to kill the Jews or to kill, I don't know whom, just because we can vote, because there is a majority vote in the parliament and people will say, no, it's not possible. So, and you say to the people, why do you say no?
Because if God doesn't exist, evil and good does not exist either. We are mosquitoes.
We are a little bit clever than mosquitoes, a little bit bigger. But by nature there is no difference between mosquitoes, you and me. We are just particles. We are just particles cleverly arranged by chance and necessity. And, and that's all. And if somebody is smashing the mosquitoes or you and me, there is no change. It's just particles going back to nature. So we could kill anyone. There is no problem at all. We are nothing like we kill a mosquito.
So I think that nobody can accept that, in fact. So this is why we wanted to explore that chapter which is in my report, very important. And we wanted also to explore some thrilling enigmas so that the person who is reading this book at the end, she has a view, not only science, but philosophy, morality and historians among.
And then it's possible to make a decision and to say, well, it's clear. Well, or perhaps with people say, I'm keeping materialism, but. Well, that's quite difficult to defend. But that's why we all. Our book is a little bit different of the others.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And one other thing I'd point out about the book is you also dedicate a chapter to quoting the words of dozens of scientists who were associated with these discoveries that we're talking about in cosmology and biology and elsewhere, physics. And so I appreciate that because you're giving people the chance to read exact words from the scientists and giving us a glimpse of the impact that these discoveries made on the scientists. You know, we're getting, we're getting it firsthand. So I appreciated how you just inserted a chapter that sort of let the scientists speak for themselves about these discoveries. I thought that was pretty helpful.
Now, as you're saying, beyond the, the science, you have discussion of consciousness as A challenge to materialism. You have some probing on the nature of morality, a review of philosophical proofs for the existence of God, some discussion of the theoretical possibility of miracles, and you touch on, you know, the historicity of the Bible and the Hebrew peoples. And you put it all together, starting with the science, but by no means ending with it.
And so I think two of the strengths of this book are the breadth of the evidence that you present as well as the readability.
Now, what audience did you and Olivier have in mind when you wrote the book?
[00:26:20] Speaker A: When we wrote that book, we had in mind that it should be for the general public. It is, you know, in our family, sometime in family now, and it's frequent. You have, the husband believes in God and the wife does not, or some children do and some other do not.
So all these people, they have questions in their mind and they are looking for answers. They want answers.
And so we had in mind to write a book for the general public, yet a book which would be scientifically perfectly exact. And this is why it took us such a long time.
It took us four years to write a book with the help of 25 to 30 experts.
It has been a very, very long, very long work to do it. But.
Well, we have been very happy to see that the book has had success in general public. And as you have mentioned, we are now over 400,000 copies and we are starting now in the United States and in England in all English speaking languages.
And we hope that this book can do good and help people, help people to forge their own opinion.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's key, you know, letting them be the, the final decider, you know, that's what you want. And I was just talking to another interviewee, you know, Michael Kent, a scientist who spends part of his time in France, in Paris, and he, he says there's just not a lot of resources for intelligent design, you know, and, and the idea of making the argument for God from science. Not a lot of resources in France and in the rest of Europe, at least not as many as what is available in the United States.
So your book, I think, fills a, an important gap and provides a lengthy and comprehensive resource that I think is going to be welcomed not just in Europe, but in the English speaking world as well now.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: I hope so. I hope so.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, speaking of that, the book is now available in English. That's, that's the occasion for our conversation today. What is your hope for the book as it passes this new milestone and is available in the United States, the United Kingdom and Elsewhere.
[00:28:44] Speaker A: Well, as you mentioned, many books now are, are treating our, speaking of this, of this question and it's, it's the proof that there is a real wave.
I mean there is a big change.
There is a real wave and we are like surfers.
For example, Steve Meyer has made his book, he's surfing on the wave. We are surfing also on the wave. Our books are different because the one of Steve, which I appreciate very much is slightly different. We have a book, our book is more for the general public and it is a panoramic view which is 180 degree view of all the evidence, not only in science. So they are different. But what we hope is that this will start to get into the reflection of the population of the general public. Exactly as the same as the pendulum of science has swung back now it is important to help to people, to know it, to be conscious, to realize it.
Yeah, that's what I hope.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's a great point we've made today is that that these are very recent discoveries, you know, and so more people need to know. Now speaking of that, where can our audience learn more about the book and order a copy?
[00:30:11] Speaker A: First of all on Amazon of course, Amazon is very simple. We are Amazon.com in US and you can order it very easily. The title is God the Science the Evidence. God the Science the Evidence.
And there on Amazon you have a lot of things.
And also there is a website for, for the book and the name of the website is very simple. It is the title all attached. Got the Science the evidence dot com. There is a site with all the information about the book, about all what we do, where we are. We are giving conferences. We have been participating to a conference in Princeton one week ago and Berkeley with three Nobel prize winners, John Mater and, and William Phillips. It was really exciting to discuss with all these people the topic of golden science with top scientists. So they will find this on the website. So everything is on the website and of course also probably on Google if you google our names you can find also our personal website and many information like this.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: Yeah, well I'm excited to be part of, you know, what you're doing, what, what Dr. Meyer is doing and many others in the intelligent design research community riding that wave, as you say, helping to usher scientific materialism out the door, you know, and letting that pendulum swing back, following the evidence where it leads and allowing science to really answer that question that you set out to answer with this book. And that is does God exist or not?
So thank you for your work in that, and I appreciate your time today.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Michelle thank you. Andrew. Thank you very much.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So again, audience, for those interested in getting a copy of God the Science the Evidence, go to the website God the sciencethe evidence.com or as you said earlier, we can hop onto Amazon and do it there as well. There's the COVID a very distinguished cover, and it's a God the Signs, the Evidence.
Well, for Idea the Future, I'm Andrew McDermott. Really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Visit
[email protected] and intelligent design.org this program is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by its center for Science and Culture.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Editor's Note this interview is sponsored by Palomar Editions, publisher of God Designs the Evidence.
However, Discovery Institute staff were responsible for the editorial content of this posting.
