[00:00:04] Speaker A: Id the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Welcome to id the future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. Today I'm speaking with Doctor Melissa Cain Travis about her new online course, science and Christianity and historical exploration. Doctor Travis is a fellow at Discovery Institute's center for Science and Culture, where she serves as an instructor of adult education
[email protected] dot she is the author of thinking God's thoughts, Johannes Kepler, and the Miracle of cosmic Comprehensibility and Science and the mind of the Maker. What the conversation between faith and science reveals about God. In addition to teaching graduate courses for Colorado Christian University's Lee Strobel center, she serves on the executive council of the Evangelical Philosophical Society and as president of the Society for Women of Letters. She is part of the Core writers team for the Worldview Bulletin and the Christian Research Journal and regularly lectures at universities, seminaries and churches around the country. Melissa, welcome back to id the future.
[00:01:14] Speaker C: Hey, Andrew. I'm glad to be here.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for dropping in. Well, you're teaching a series of
[email protected] on the relationship between science and Christianity, a subject in which you have a particular interest and in which you've dedicated a lot of study and research.
This spring, you're offering, again the first in this series, science and Christianity and historical exploration. It's a live six week course with live lecture and discussion Zoom sessions each week with a limited class of students. First, I know you've had some experience teaching online courses. What do you like about this approach to learning?
[00:01:53] Speaker C: Yes, I taught distance courses at both the undergraduate and graduate level in the apologetics department at Houston Christian University for seven years. And I've taught science and faith graduate courses at Colorado Christian University's Lee Strobel center for a couple of years. The historical interaction of science and Christianity has been an area of academic interest for me for well over a decade. I can trace it back to a course I actually took with Doctor Mike Keys, who's a senior fellow at Discovery Institute, and that would have been in 2009. So this is a topic that became near and dear to my heart very fast and has stuck with me. And while I'd always choose to be in an on campus classroom, my experience has been that the vast majority of students that pursue education in these kinds of more specialized disciplines are already established professionals who are rooted in their own communities around the country or even in other countries. And so online education platforms allow them to study these kinds of topics with specific scholars that they wouldn't have access to otherwise, and that's the wonderful advantage of this particular learning format. But with that said, there are many different ways to approach online education, and they are not all created equally. What we see most often is the fully automated delivery in which everything's pre recorded. So lectures are pre recorded, there are quizzes uploaded and things like that, and then assignments are automatically graded so the student can log in and complete a course like that in their own time. And that works great when the student's only looking for a credit that's required by their job or they just want a very basic introduction to a topic. But for the learners who desire a really in depth study and want to be able to ask questions, to have live interaction with an instructor and with their fellow students, you really have to have live class. And I'm so grateful that we have the technology of Zoom that makes that possible. So that's why my discovery u courses include 690 minutes Zoom sessions. And each one of those sessions is divided into two parts. We have a discussion segment in which we have very focused dialogue about the previous week's reading assignments, and then after that we'll have a lecture segment, and that's designed to set everyone up for the forthcoming reading and also supplement the new material that they're going to be learning in the coming week. And so far, I've had students from places far and wide, even from Japan, in both of my classes last year, who have come together to take these courses with me. And it's just so wonderful that we can all come together, all these people from different places and different backgrounds who have a desire to learn a lot more about these topics, and we just glean so much from one another.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. It's a great way to do it. And of course, as you say, no substitute for in person learning. But as you get older, you've got other commitments and professional obligations, and yet there's still a platform to have that in depth, enriched learning. And so I'm glad that you're part of that. Well, your historic exploration course is designed to equip students with two a foundational understanding of the complexities of the history of Christianity and science, and the skill to address the distorted historical narratives that persist in the contemporary conversation. Now, this would be a good time to mention the warfare thesis. Tell us what that is and how it persists today.
[00:05:50] Speaker C: Well, as many of our listeners already know, there are these persistent historical myths about this centuries long relationship between Christianity and modern science. Distorted accounts of this interaction have floated around for a very long time, but things were made significantly worse during the 19th century. And that happened with the publication of two different texts. There was John William Draper's history of the conflict between religion and science, which came out in 1874. And then there was Andrew Dixon White's two volume work that was entitled a History of the Warfare of Science with theology in Christendom, a mouthful of a title. And that came out in 1896. So these particular texts misconstrued historical accounts, they perpetuated false information, and then subsequent publications drew from those texts. And so these sorts of myths and this misconstrual of the historical interaction of science and Christianity was then transmitted into student textbooks and other types of popular publications, and they just became absorbed into popular culture. So, to give an example, we still encounter this silly story about how Christopher Columbus struggled to get his voyage commissioned because religious authorities thought the world was flat and that if Columbus and his crew set sail, they'd sell right off the edge of the world into oblivion. Or false details about the infamous Galileo affair. I encountered a student not very long ago who had actually grown up hearing that Galileo was tortured and then beheaded by the inquisition. Neither of which is true, by the way. But then another part of the problem is that those who haven't studied history at an academic level typically don't realize how complex this interaction has been. We simply cannot flatten out any given episode into a two dimensional picture of science versus Christianity. And even in cases where the church has clearly made some mistakes, and I always note this with my students, we have to be honest about the mistakes that have been made while we're at the same time working to dispel the myths that really muddy the waters of the conversation.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah, and I like the way you put that. You don't want a 2d look at this, a flat, simplified idea. You want all aspects, and that enriches your understanding. Well, one thing I appreciate about your scholarship is that you take time to unpack the historical pedigree of important ideas in the history of science. We saw this with your excellent book, thinking God's thoughts about Johannes Kepler and his influence on modern cosmology. And by the way, listeners, we have a great three part interview series that I did with Melissa for that book. So if you're interested in Kepler and how he inspired and influences modern cosmology, go back and listen to those. But you do the same with this course. Can you briefly review where you start with the course and some of the major figures you cover from the outset?
[00:09:11] Speaker C: Sure. Thank you for that. I'm a lifelong student of the great western tradition because first of all, I deeply appreciate the importance of the history of ideas, how they've emerged and how and why they've changed over time, philosophical motivations, sociological factors, etcetera. And secondly, I believe that most any topic requires interdisciplinary study. That's one of my big soapboxes. So my historical explorations course really begins several centuries before the birth of Christ with the earliest and most famous pre socratic philosopher, Pythagoras of samos. And then it traces several big ideas through the contemporary science and Christianity conversation. So obviously that's a whole lot to survey in only six weeks. So what I've done is selected pivotal episodes and issues that help students really gain an understanding of how science and Christianity have related over the past 2000 plus years, and how very complex the situation has really always been. So, for example, we discussed Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, all devout christians who played key roles in the rise of modern science. And we cover the emergence of the discipline known as natural theology. So this is the idea that aspects of nature indicate the existence of a rational creator. And then, of course, we have to also discuss the subsequent public debut of darwinian theory, which happened in 1859, and we talk about how that really changed the natural theology conversation. In a latter week, we explore what we might call the physics revolution of the early 20th century, and we get to discuss k he figures like Max Planck, Albert Einstein, Arthur Eddington and several others. And then we spend some time on the infamous scopes monkey trial of 1925, because inherit the wind, the film based on that famous court case, is actually highly inaccurate. And then eventually we examine the current state of the science and Christianity conversation. It's a whirlwind, I admit, but I do work really hard to make these six weeks as enriching as possible while also keeping the material accessible. Since our course participants have different educational and professional backgrounds, before any course begins, I inevitably get emails from professionals who say, well, I'm an attorney or I'm a literature professor or what have you, and I really don't have a strong science background. Am I going to be lost in your class? And I always reassure them, no, absolutely not. I intentionally keep the material accessible. So whether you have a lot of science background or none whatsoever, you'll really appreciate the content of the course.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah, well, through that very thorough survey that you're giving in the course, you do touch on the middle ages and of course, the dark ages, as they're sometimes referred to. It's one of the most misunderstood periods in human history, that time between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance the common myth is that this was a period that stifled science and creativity. But you correct this thinking in the course. Can you give us a little glimpse into what you cover in that area?
[00:12:49] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So this pejorative term, the dark ages, goes back quite a long time, but it really became popularized in the 20th century more than ever before. There was this prominent atheist by the name of Ruth Green, and a lot of people haven't heard of her, but they often recognize these pithy little statements that she would make about Christianity. And one thing that she said that has sort of been immortalized is there was a time when religion ruled the world. It's known as the Dark Ages. And so that statement and others that sort of paraphrase it have unfortunately been printed in books, articles. They've become Internet memes. They've become common talking points that all help perpetuate this false narrative about this particular historical period. So, in my course, we dig into the real story of the cultural decline that followed the fall of Rome, but also the crucial role that the church played in the preservation of precious knowledge and in the expansion of learning during that time, which led to the founding of the first universities and then eventually the rise of modern science.
[00:14:11] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm glad you unpacked that and helped to dispel that myth. In his book, Return of the God Hypothesis, Doctor Stephen Meyer explores the x factor, the answer to the questions why there and why then about the rise of modern science. And your course designates a whole week to the scientific revolution. What do you present in this part of the course?
[00:14:32] Speaker C: Yes, I still like to use that phrase, scientific revolution, even though I do acknowledge that it has been criticized for being somewhat misleading, because we didn't have this sudden thing that happened, and then everything thereafter was different. But when you use that phrase, scientific revolution, most people have at least a general idea of what you mean. It was probably the phrase that they learned when they were in grade school. And so I find it helpful in that regard. But the idea behind this phrase is that there was this relatively rapid change in our understanding and study of the universe during the 17th century, and that was really catalyzed by the discovery of heliocentrism, or a sun centered solar system, and it really flowered thereafter with newtonian physics. So this particular segment of the course dispels some of the historical myth, and then it introduces some of the philosophical and theological thought that really gave important impetus to the revolution. We definitely interact with that x factor, as Doctor Meyer calls it.
[00:15:44] Speaker B: Yeah, and then in the 18th and 19th centuries. Of course, natural theology experienced a hay day. What do you present to students about this period? And how did the publication of Darwin's origin of species affect arguments from natural theology?
[00:15:58] Speaker C: Well, we basically cover how natural philosophers thought about and used their knowledge of nature to argue for the existence of God. So in other words, their approach to natural theology. For instance, we consider William Paley's design arguments, and I use that in the plural because it wasn't just one argument that he, he made. He wrote an entire book of arguments. But students do have the experience of reading together his famous watchmaker argument. So those kinds of design arguments during this heyday of natural theology went on to be highly influential. But then we examine how the publication of Darwin's origin of species really impacted that conversation. So, in short, to give a little spoiler, different thinkers received darwinian theory differently, whether they were christians or not. So, for example, Darwin's most avid american champion was a devout Christian. It was the Harvard botanist Asa Gray, and he thought evolution by natural selection only helped his design arguments, interestingly enough. But Darwin himself detested that view, and he believed that his theory spelled big trouble for biological design arguments and thus for natural theology. So again, we see how complex the conversation continued to be and how even at the time, perspectives varied drastically on a philosophical and theological level.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Yeah, a very interesting time to be thinking along these lines, and it's good to study this period. Well, today I think we're living in a very exciting age in the history of science and Christianity. Scientific discoveries of the last hundred years are confirming the hypothesis that life and the universe are products of design, not undirected natural processes. What topics do you cover in the conclusion to your historical exploration course?
[00:17:59] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. It is a very exciting time. So in the final week of the course, we consider contemporary cosmology and the different approaches to drawing metaphysical implications from discoveries about the fundamental structure of the material world and models of its origins. We don't do much in terms of analyzing design argumentation because that's covered in the companion course, science and Christianity philosophical perspectives. But during this final week of the historical exploration course, we have a great segue, if you will, into the philosophical course. Students don't necessarily have to take the course in this order. History, then philosophy, they could do it the other way around. But if they take the history first, they'll definitely get the sense that this course flows very naturally into the philosophy course.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Okay, well, remind us of the dates for this iteration of the course. And where do people learn more and sign up to take it.
[00:19:03] Speaker C: Well, we'll begin on Thursday, April 11, with a Zoom session at 07:00 p.m. Central time, and then we'll meet on five more consecutive Thursday evenings. The last one will fall on May 16, so students will have a syllabus that outlines the reading and study materials that will be discussed in sessions two through six. And then our wrap up will be an online Google chat in which we'll get to interact throughout the remainder of that 6th week on the reading we're doing and the videos that we're watching. And by the way, I do record these sessions, so if any student has to miss a session for some reason, they can at least go back and watch the video and then email me with any questions they have about the material. So I try to be as accommodating as I can because I know life just happens. And then we have students who really want to sign up for the course, but they hesitate because they think, oh, I have this big event coming up and I know I'm going to miss a session. So I'm saying all that to reassure them. Never fear, you won't miss out on any of the material, even though you might miss out on interacting in the conversation on any given week.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's spring 2024, the latest iteration of science and Christianity and historical exploration. Melissa, are you going to be offering future course offerings? Are you designing more courses?
[00:20:32] Speaker C: Yes. Yes, I am. I have actually a list of twelve courses that I would very much love to develop for Discovery U. I'll be teaching the philosophy course again later this year, and then I'm hoping that I have time to put together a course on, well, I'm entitling it tentatively, mind by design, where we'll talk about philosophy of mind and the latest findings of neuroscience and argue that the human mind is more than just the material brain. So that's one of my favorite topics.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Okay, so lots more to come from you. So that's the latest on science and christianity and historical exploration. You can learn more about the course and sign up to take
[email protected]. Dot that's discoveryou.org dot. Well, Melissa, thank you very much for your time.
[00:21:26] Speaker C: Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm really looking forward to meeting the new crop of students and to seeing where this discoveryu project takes us all.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, until next time, I'm Andrew Mcdermott with melissa Cain Travis for id the future. Thanks for listening.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Visit
[email protected] and intelligentdesign.org dot. This program is copyright Discovery institute and recorded by its center for Science and Culture.
