Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Evolution not only is a gradual process, as a matter of fact, it has to be gradual if it is to do any explanatory work.
ID the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent Design.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Welcome to ID the Future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott.
Well, we've all admired the long, majestic neck of the giraffe. And the question how did the giraffe get its long neck? Is it a product of an evolutionary process over lots of time, or was a process of foresight and purpose involved?
Helping us unpack this today is retired geneticist Dr. Wolf Eckart Lunnick. In case you're not familiar with the work of Wolf Eckart, let me share some details with you.
Mathematician and ID theorist Granville Sewell has described Dr. Lunig as an intelligent design pioneer.
That's because for over 50 years, Dr. Lunig has been offering robust criticism of Darwinian theory and advocating for intelligent design.
He argued for intelligent Design in his 1971 Master of Science thesis at the Free University of Berlin.
His faculty advisor there, the director of the Botanical Gardens and Botanical Museum of Berlin, Dalem, had high praise for his thesis, saying, finally, a master's thesis in which a young man turns decidedly against a sacred cow and demonstrates the sore points of a doctrine which for most minds is thought of not just as a theory, as a great synopsis, but as an impeccable and almost completely proven fact.
Now, Wolf Eckard would go on to earn a PhD from the University of Bonn and work as a geneticist for over 25 years at the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Cologne. He has continued throughout his career and now in retirement, to apply critical evaluation to the gesso stories of Darwinism and promote the evidence for intelligent design in his writings, several of which have been published in scientific journals.
Dr. Leonig, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you back.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: Thank you very much for inviting me.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome. Well, you're here with us to talk about giraffes, which is awesome. And just at the outset, I want to mention that Wolf Eckhart and myself have unpacked panda evolution on previous episodes of ID the Future. So if you're interested in the panda, in particular the panda stum and. And the origin of that beautiful animal, go back and listen to those episodes. But today, it's all about giraffes.
Now, Wolf Eckhart, for people who may not know your work, can you tell us about your background in science and what first drew you to studying the giraffe?
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Well, I have Already mentioned a few points. I'm a mutation and transposon geneticist and I have worked for seven years at the University of Bonn and 25 years at the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding, Cologne Cardiac Research in Cologne.
During all these years I had a strong interest in paleontology, studying even so much that it was the second subject for my PhD.
And I would like to say that anyone who is more interested in my scientific background, you may look at my curriculum witty on my homepage there you find many more points.
So I have also always been interested in animals, among others, being often fascinating by the giraffes, these tallest mammalian lands animals which according to AI are widely regarded as one of the most beautiful, graceful and iconic animals in the world.
Moreover, when evolutionary scientists like Kuchira, Dawkins, Hunt and many others began asserting doubtful things about the giraffe evolution, I began writing a book which was published in 2011 titled the Evolution of the Long Necked Giraffe. That's a book and you find the entire book on the Internet.
If you go on my homepage, you can check it, you can see the entire book and read it if you like, if you have enough time and like doing this. This was originally in German. I have that German one and it was translated by Granville Sewer, professor of mathematics. He translated the German one into English. I am very thankful that he put this was an enormous work for him.
And I would say that this was 2011.
And in the last 15 years a strong important research work has been done on the giraffe. Many doubtful assertions have been made in the meantime by evolutionary scientists which were probably the topic of the following minutes.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Now many people think the giraffe is a classic example of evolution know case closed. Why is the giraffe such an important case to study?
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Well, you all already mentioned this enormously long neck and this is of course something which everybody knows, perhaps even first of the giraffe. But this of course is an entire system of things. It is not only the necked, it's the longest, the body which is totally restructured and long legs and so on.
And this has already been discussed in 1809 by Lamarck and by Darwin in 1859 and recently especially by Richard Dawkins in his books.
And the giraffe has even been found, can even be found on the title pages of many recent textbooks like Campbell Biology 2020 Studies in Biology 2025 A basic biology to end others.
So it is a widely known animal and anyone who has ever seen this will not so quickly forget it.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. It stands out above the crowd, literally.
Now, in simple terms, let's talk about what evolution predicts and then we'll actually look at what the evidence shows in reality. So in simple terms, what does Darwinian evolution expect the fossil record of the giraffe to look like?
[00:07:20] Speaker A: I would say that really it is as a commentary by Dr. Zidua in his book the Transformers Delusion, he if the evolution theory be true, the record should exhibit the following features. Now he goes on to Every class, order, family or genus would make its appearance in the form of a single species and exhibit no diversity until it has been in existence for a long time. Clear.
The flora and fauna at any given geological horizon would differ but slightly from those immediately above and below, except on the rare occasions when the local climate suddenly changed. If the sea flowed over the land or the sea had retreated.
Now, on this base, it should be possible to arrange chronological theories of fossils, showing step by step the origin of many of the classes and smaller groups of animals and plants.
By means of these fossil theories, it should be possible to draw up a pedigree, accurately tracing the descent of most of the species now living from groups shown by the fossils to have been living in the Cambrian period. The earliest fossils of each new root would be difficult to distinguish from those of the group from which it evolved.
And the distinguishing features of the new group would be poorly developed as the wings of birds or bats.
Well, this is a clear summary of what would be expected on the theory of neo Darwinism, the ruling dominant theory of art, they of continuous evolution.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
Okay, so that's what we'd expect under a Darwinian framework. Let's talk about what we actually find. When you look at the giraffe fossil record, do you see that kind of gradual pattern?
[00:09:28] Speaker A: What do we see in our paper? In my paper about the fossil record of the giraffe, I have shown this picture and here you see the giraffe, of course. That's such a beautiful animal, such an elegant.
One of the books on the giraffe has been called the Tall Blondes.
The Tall Blondes. And on the other side you see the photo record and you see 1, 2, 3, 4 subfamilies.
And you see that all the more than 25 genera appear suddenly in the fossil record.
More than 25 generas appear suddenly in the fossil record.
And this is in clear and definite contrast to the expectations and predictions according to the neo Darwinian theory of gradual evolution. And, and that's always a sudden experience yes, this is. I can show it perhaps in another way. Perhaps you can see on the side below, you see the different genera which have appeared and the timescale, the geologic timescale, and you see that all these subfamilies and genera appear abruptly, suddenly in the record.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: Okay. And perhaps you can specify to us what you mean by suddenly, just so we can get it in the picture here as far as geologic time is concerned.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Yes, before I do that, I would like to.
Then you see perhaps in the upper side here.
That's the idea by leading evolutionary scientists who have worked about giraffe and how they imagine a continuous evolution. And to be better seen, this is regularly shown almost everywhere on the Internet.
This is phylogenetic tree by these evolutionary scientists. There's a small beginning and then continual evolution over many, many, many linking genera and species.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: We remember that Darwinian evolution, you know, claims to take lots and lots of time on the geologic scale. So what do we mean by suddenly?
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Suddenly means in that connection that you have no phylonetic line which is leading to these different genera and forms.
They appear abruptly and then they are regularly followed by enormous long time of stasis, of constancy.
And this is also in utter contrast to the predictions of gradualism, the dominant neo Darwinian modern or modern theory.
The tree is a bush.
As one leading evolutionaries of theory on the giraffe.
Tree evolutionary tree has spoken.
And I would add that there's not even a bush. The main types and subtypes appear independently of each other and in agreement with the idea theory. The homologous similarities are due to common design and not to common descent. This is true also for the tall blond as shown in that first picture which I showed here, this beautiful animal on the sand. This is a tall blonde. It's such a beautiful animal. So I would also try, I would also like to emphasize that this, what we have called stasis or constancy of the life forms, they appear abruptly and then stay constant in all their important features.
And many evolutionists have made comments on that phenomena.
Ernst Meyer, the famous Ernst Meyer says the complete standstill or stasis of an evolutionary lineage for scores, if not hundreds of millions of years.
Is it very puzzling?
Ronald Prothero he said some biologists try to explain away stasis by mechanisms such as stabilizing selection, selection against the extremes of a population, reinforcing the main tendency.
But this does not explain how some fossil populations persist unchanged through millions of years of well documented climatic change. Surely a strong selection process as documented by several evolutionary biologists. And Gould pointed out the persistence of fossil species through millions of years of intense selection pressure suggests that they are not infinitely malleable by selection, but instead have an integrity of some sort of internal homeostatic mechanism that resists most external selection.
In my paper I have gathered together a whole series of similar pronouncements by leading evolutionists like Stanley. For example, the record now reels that species typically survive for hundreds of thousands of generations or even a million or more, without evolving very much after their origins. Most species undergo little evolution before becoming extinct. And Gooch has many such similar statements. The fossil record shows geologically abrupt origin and subsequent extended stasis of most species.
The tale exemplifies what may be called the cardinal and dominant fact of the fossil record.
The great majority of species appear with geological abruptness in the fossil record and then persist in stasis until their extinction. Paleontologists have always recognized that the long term stability of most species. But we had become more than a bit ashamed by this strong and literary signal.
For the dominant theory of our scientific culture told us to look for the opposite result of gradualism as a primary empirical expression of every biologist's favorite subject, evolution itself.
But this is not so, as he and many others have. Niles Ulrich also it is a simple ineluctable truth that virtually all members of a Bioto remain basically stable with minor fluctuations short their duration and many others up to 2025. I have documented it and also we have it now 2026.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and those periods of stasis demand an answer. And, and I do like the way that you quoted it. The cardinal and dominant fact of the fossil record demands an answer. And so here we are. Now some people say the fossils are incomplete, but after many years of research, is that still a good explanation?
[00:18:05] Speaker A: Well, some people always try to immunize any objection from paleontology against their theory of continuous evolution by selection by telling the public.
So the fossil record is so incomplete. Well, let's first look at what Darwin and the neo Darwin say about their leading evolutionary theory. Continuous evolution by selection, according to Darwin, by infinitesimally small changes, infinitesimally slight variations, slow degrees, hence imagined steps not greater than those separating fine varieties, insensibly fine steps, insensibly fine gradations and so on. Is that natura nature doesn't jump.
This sentence of Darwin occurs 12 times in the 6 editions of 1872. And similarly Dawkins. Similarly Dawkins evolution not only is a gradual process, as a matter of fact it has to be gradual if it is to do any explanatory work.
Also, all neo Darwinians, this is, as I already said, the dominant evolutionary theory agree on this point. For example, Barton B. And D. Charles was coined Futui, Man, Kutira, Maya, Moran, Mala and many other persons.
And against this totalitarian view, the distinguished paleontology Oscar Kuhn of the University of Munich stated more than 100 years after Darwin's origin in 1859 and he has made such a powerful and clear verdict, which I cannot paraphrase, to do it better. So I quote it again.
He stated the prejudice that the phylogenetic history of life could only be an accumulation of the smallest variational steps. You must just start.
And that a more complete knowledge of the paleontological documents would prove the gradual evolution is deeply rooted and widely accepted even today.
But the paleontological facts have long spoken against this prejudice.
Especially German paleontologists like Boyerland, Ducke and Shindelwald have emphatically pointed out that in many animal groups such a rich, even overwhelming amount of fossil material exists. Then you give some examples. Polar minifers, brachiopods, bryozoans, cephalopods, astrocods, trilobites or trilobites, that the gaps, that's the important point, this important conclusion, that the gaps between the types and subtypes must be viewed as real. I would like to emphasize this conclusion again.
It is so an open, overwhelming amount of fossil material we have in many animal groups that the gaps between the types and subtypes must be viewed as real.
And this is.
We can also apply this on your giraffe for the record.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that word that you brought up, infinitesimal is just a super word. To show the limits of a Darwinian process, it has to be infinitesimal, which means tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny adjustments or changes. And the moment, it's not the moment you say Darwin, Darwinian processes can jump. That's the moment that process fails because it cannot jump by default.
So they're limited to that infinitesimal approach. And in the end that's what's going to sink Darwinism. Now, even with many giraffe fossils known today, you say there is still no clear evolutionary story. So why do you say that?
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Well, it's not only me who is pointing out the fact that there's still no clear evolutionary story concerning the giraffe. The subtitle of my article on the giraffe fossil record in quotation marks I put that why a true evolutionary story is not available is taken from the leading Evolutionary researcher on fossil dryads, Nicosolunias.
He studied in 2022 and 2024, by the way. He is professor of anatomy at the New York Institute of Technology and he is described there, Dr. Nicholas Soluniers, as a preeminent expert in modern and paleo angulate anatomy and biology. He has over 30 years of experience in the research and teaching of mammalian anatomy and evolution. A true evolutionary story is not available in the words of the best and of the best and leading evolutionary theories and foremost of them Nikos Thelonius himself.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Right, and I'm glad you're pointing that out that this isn't just you. This is actually experts in the fields of paleontology and biology and others who are acknowledging the facts. Right, the cardinal and dominant facts produced by the fossil record. The record doesn't lie.
Now, you describe giraffe relatives as appearing in separate groups or silos. Can you explain that idea simply?
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Yes, I would first say it again, Solonius, who states entirely correctly that the different giraffe groups appear in silos.
According to AI, a silo is a metaphorical use, a system, a process or department that operates in isolation and does not communicate or cooperate with other parts of the organization.
Also an isolated group department, etc. That functions independently of others.
So these genera have appeared independently of others.
And so he used the word Silas for them in that context of evolutionary comparisons of Samuel's theorem with the okapi and the giraffe.
Solonius mentions in 2025 that only the neck elongation brings Samotherium closer to the giraffe. So they're all in this silence Also, it seems that these three species cannot be brought closer in terms of evolution.
Thus he says, quote directly, they are in three isolated silos at the Giraffidi, end of quote.
In 2024 he said, what I observe within the classifications of the Giraffidae is that one cannot make an evolutionary sequence across taxa. That's important point.
One cannot make the sequence half a general.
The meaning of this heterogeneity of the genera is most likely due to them truly evolving independently within each subfamily, end of quote. He also said, what I suggest is that in giraffe D there was an early large adaptive radiation and subsequently species evolved in silos. That's the protagonist Silas of their respected subfamily.
Uniting the subfamilies is very difficult because of these early adaptive variations. Well, we will speak in the second interview about this evolving independently, this pronouncement that they are evolving independently with NIH suffering and what is important is that you cannot make a real evolutionary tree and the the beginning of that bush is also missing and that we'll speak about that later.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: There are formidable problems associated with putting this into a just so evolutionary story as we're seeing. Well, we're going to leave it there now, but in a separate episode we'll continue the conversation by looking at the debate over the Samothrium fossil, the one you just mentioned, and why it doesn't satisfy as a true intermediate in the supposed evolutionary line of the giraffe. Now we're also going to include a link to Wolf Eckard's coverage of the giraffe evolution debate in the show notes for this episode so those who are curious can read more. Well, until next time, thank you, Wolf Eckert.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: I'm editing Dermot for ID the Future. We'll see you soon.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: Visit us at idthefuture. Com and intelligentdesign. Org. This program is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by its center for Science and Culture.
