Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent Design.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Welcome to ID the Future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. Well, today I'm welcoming back David Koppage to discuss fascinating examples of design technology in the plant world. Mr. Coppage, in case you don't know him yet or aren't familiar with his background, is a freelance science reporter in Southern California. He worked at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory for 14 years on the Cassini mission to Saturn until he was ousted in 2011 for sharing material on intelligent design, a discriminatory action that led to a nationally publicized court trial in 2012. Discovery Institute supported his case, but a lone judge ruled against him without explanation.
He has been a board member of Illustra Media since its founding and serves as their science consultant. And if you haven't seen some of the videos that have been put out by Illustra Media in recent years, you do need to do that. A nature photographer, outdoorsman, and musician, David holds B.S. degrees in science education and in physics, and he gives presentations on ID and other scientific subjects. David, welcome back to the show.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Good to be with you.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: So you Write regularly at evolutionnews.org, our flagship news and commentary site that covers the debate over evolution and the evidence for intelligent design. You cover examples of intelligent design in action, like scientists using AI to detect intelligently designed geoglyphs on the Nazca Plain in Peru. I enjoy that discussion we had recently. You also write about instances of design in the plant and animal worlds, and a couple of those articles caught my eye recently. One was about plant missile technology and explored the ingenious ways that some plants tend to send their spores out. The other article looked at plant roots and how they function like jackhammers to penetrate hard surfaces that greatly exceed their own strength.
So let's start with the plant missile technology. You know, it can't be something we think about very often, how plants disperse their spores or seeds to reproduce. We're aware of it, of course, on a surface level, but, oh, how enjoyable it is to bite the bullet of complexity, as biochemist Michael Behe writes, and take a closer look at what's going on under the hood in biology. These plants, they look so helpless, tied to the soil. But plants and fungi have perfectly tuned technologies for spreading themselves far and wide. Now, first, David, can you remind us why it's very difficult for tiny projectiles like plant and fungi spores to escape the surface that they're on?
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Sure. Well, we have to shrink ourselves down to their scale. And when you're at the Microscopic scale of spores. The air is like soup. The pressure is very different experience than what we feel at our level. So the only way that a fungus can spread its spores is to launch them like little rockets at an incredible speed and then get them out a few times their own length. And remember too, this is interesting. I think a spore contains the genome of the fungus, and many fungi have genomes on the size of 40 megabases. That's about 80 books worth of genetic information. A remarkable amount of data contained in bodies as small as smoke particles.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. About them being so small and the pressure of the air being different, you know, it's sort of like we have to think on the honey, I shrunk the kids, you know, kind of idea, you know, getting really small and thinking about these tiny things and how they would shoot out. So you highlight a recent paper in the journal Current Biology about this topic. The author is Nicholas Money, and he says that plant arsenals include short range, intermediate range and long range micro ballistics. So let's review some examples of these micro ballistics. Let's start with the short range missiles. Tell us about the fungi or fungi. Dayton yellow.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah. First, let me give a hat tip to my friend and colleague Lad Allen, the producer at Illustra Media, because I got really interested in this subject through him. One of his first science films decades ago when we first met was a film called Journey of Life. And it was about how plants spread their seeds through a variety of ingenious devices like miniature submarines, parachutes, helicopters, drills, and the like. It was utterly fascinating. And so his film had a big effect on me. So when I saw this paper in Current Biology, I related to it immediately. And yet this one describes even smaller devices on spore producing plants and fungi.
Now, Daytoniella is a fungus named after its discoverer in the 20th century. It's a rust fungus from Europe that is sometimes found on banana leaves.
Now, it takes advantage of a physical property called cavitation. Cavitation is when vacuum bubbles form in a fast moving fluid and then collapse with explosive energy. So it's a very important physical process that designers of propellers and dams have to take into account because it can be extremely destructive. In fact, there have been cases where outlet flows from dams have exceeded the ability for the concrete to hold them because cavitation sets in. And cavitation can actually destroy through concrete and rebar and it can destroy ship propellers. So engineers have to be very cognizant of cavitation. But Here is a little fungus called Data Neela that uses cavitation to its advantage as a launching pad for its spores. So the spores grow on these little tiny stalks that have a bulb on top. And Dr. Money talks about how this bulb, when it dries out, the cell wall resists shrinkage, but it's got to shrink in because the water is disappearing inside the cell. So it resists shrinkage. Think of maybe like pressing in on a soft balloon. You can only go so far, but at a certain point inside that bulb, cavitation bubbles take effect and they pop the membrane out, which launches the spore. And so the spore can escape at 2ft per second, over just half a millimeter, but that's 15 times the length of the spore. And so it's far enough for the spore to escape the boundary layer of still air at the leaf surface and get out to where it can grow another fungi. There's other fungi, too, that use cavitation. One is called Zygophiala, and it has a little stalk that bends as it dries. And then when the cavitation bubble forms, it rapidly straightens out and launches the spore outward. So that's pretty clever that it can use this physics technique to get its spores out.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Now, in that part of your article where you're talking about short range missiles, you do also mention mushrooms. What method do they use to release their spores?
[00:07:39] Speaker A: Yeah, mushrooms are fascinating. They come in many different species, and we're all familiar with them. We're familiar with the cap on top and the gills underneath where the spores come out. Now, mushrooms use a different physics process called condensation instead of cavitation. So Dr. Money calls it a surface tension catapult that they use.
Now, to imagine this, we've all seen soap bubbles, like in the sink. And sometimes we watch as these soap bubbles come together and combine and they snap together rapidly. You can picture that in your mind? Well, that snapping involves a force. And even though it's a very tiny force, it's plenty for the microscopic spores of the mushroom.
So the spore secretes substances on its surface that lower the dew point, causing condensation at the surface. And then another condensation bubble forms on an adjacent surface. When they snap together, that provides the force for the spore to jump out at 1 meter per second into the air. Dr. Money says there's no comparable mechanisms elsewhere in nature. And so with this simple mechanism, a mushroom can launch 30,000 spores per second. I mean, we're talking billions of spores over the lifetime of the mushroom. And not only that, but the gill spacing is finely tuned for each species so that the spores are able to fall out between the gills and catch the air currents and not land on the adjacent gill. So this is all very fascinating examples of engineering design.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, that really is. Now, some plants can launch their payloads up to several centimeters, which in the plant world is definitely in the intermediate range of missiles. How do ferns launch their spores?
[00:09:35] Speaker A: Yes, ferns are plants that also use cavitation. And let me just read to you quickly what Dr. Money says about how they use cavitation to create a miniature slingshot. Here's what he says. A rim of thick walled cells around the ovoid of these plants serves as a spring. As water evaporates from these cells, the band peels back on itself like a stretched accordion, and the sporangium gapes open, forming a cup that cradles the spores. As drying continues, water tension increases until cavitation bubbles erupt inside the cells and the band springs forward, expelling the spores at a speed of 10 meters per second in 30 microseconds.
He says this is a perfect example of power amplification, which belongs in the category of latch mediated spring actuation mechanisms that drive many of the fastest movements in biology. So we don't need to feel sorry for plants anchored to the ground. They have some pretty remarkable technology for high speeds.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: Yeah, they do. Well, some plants and fungi reach speeds that are among the swiftest movements in biology, as you're mentioning, you mentioned the example of the ascomycete fungi. Just how fast is the ascopore discharge?
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Yes, ascomycetes are another class of fungi, and they also do some pretty remarkable things. But before leaving ferns and mosses, Dr. Money mentions that sphagnum moss, which we might be familiar with, uses pressurized capsules below their spores, and they pressurize the fluid to 5 atmospheres of pressure. That's pretty remarkable. And so when the lid of the capsule opens, the spores shoot out at 30 meters per second, up to 20, 20 centimeters above the plant. So here you have these little rockets taking off in simple moss. Now, ascomycetes are fungi that use pressurized fluid in their devices, which are called ascii. So SAP becomes pressurized in in these ascii, and when they open, either with simple slits, depending on the species, or hinged lids or reinforced rings or unfolding sleeves, the spores shoot out one at a time. So here's one example called Neurospora tetrasperma The spores shoot out at 32 meters per second with tremendous acceleration.
Now, Dr. Money compares this to Hydra, which is an animal, a cnidarian related to jellyfish and corals, that accelerates its stinging cells at 5 million GS.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: So Neurospora, which is the fungus, the spores rotate on the way out at a similar.
They shoot out at a similar type of acceleration, but they also rotate on the way out at, get this, 40,000 revolutions per second.
He says that's faster than a neutron star spins, which is like a record holder for rotation. So these are remarkable wonders of nature here at a microscopic level that we're learning about. And I, I appreciate Dr. Money's article for bringing these things to our attention.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, they need this speed in order to clear the surface that they're on and have any hope of, you know, landing on the ground or some other surface where they, you know, they have a hope of taking root. Well, you don't use the word technology lightly here, and neither does Dr. Money. You know, you're talking about these spore dispersal systems, and you lay out the types of technology that are on display at the microscopic level. Tell us, just kind of review with us what, what technology is, is on display here.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Yeah, Here, here's a list of some of the physical forces that these fungi have perfected to launch their spores. He mentions turgor pressure springs, latches, compressed air, pressurized fluid, hinged lids, reinforced rings, unfolding sleeves, and more.
And all these use careful fine tuning of things like osmotic pressure, vapor pressure, and other physical forces. So it's quite remarkable to see such a variety of engineering designs in such humble little organisms that we take for granted.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it does. Well, we live in a world where, unfortunately, the threat of missiles is a reality. But plants have their own long range missiles, and those ones don't have the goal of destroying life. They're actually furthering life. Tell us about the tiny fungus called the Pillobolus. The hat thrower.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah, the hat thrower. And you're right, these organisms are furthering life. They're sending their little packages of life out into the world to bless our planet. Pillabolus. The name in Latin means hat thrower. It uses turgor pressure to make a miniature squirt gun, Dr. Money says, and it sends its little hat shaped sporangium out at 9 meters per second with a little stream of fluid behind it. So that's one example of using turgor pressure. There's another one called the artillery fungus. Spherobolus. And you have to love the name artillery fungus. It sounds a military or, you know, like a wartime. But this is a. This is a species that grows on dung, okay? And thank goodness that there are organisms that can break down dung. Otherwise we'd be stuck with piles of it all over the earth. But this species can shoot its spores out 6 meters outward with turgor pressure, so that's far enough to escape the zone of repugnance, he calls it. So that cows will ingest these spores in the grass as they feed. The spores then pass undigested through the cow's digestive tract and send the fungus to new locations. Now, Dr. Money says that the launch of the artillery fungus is at the upper end of micro ballistics. Beyond that, the effects of gravity become significant, and so other physical properties take effect, like those in the Illustra film that I mentioned earlier. For instance, the plant called the squirting cucumber.
I found this in another article from Livescience. It said that it can launch its seeds 33 meters.
So there are numerous stories to be told of how plants disperse their little packages of life around the world. In fact, some of them can get their genomes across oceans. There's plants that have, like, little floating seeds that can float clear across the ocean and start new colonies on other continents.
[00:16:42] Speaker B: Well, from a few millimeters to dozens of meters. I mean, that's pretty amazing technology that these plants are displaying now. In the Blind Watchmaker, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins wrote that biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose. So it's the illusion of design he's suggesting, not real design. And yet when we look anywhere else other than biology, we see evidence of real design, and it's not an illusion. And we're okay, you know, accepting that. But why is it different when we look at biology? How does Dr. Money explain these remarkable spore systems, you know, to what powerful mechanism does he award credit?
[00:17:24] Speaker A: Well, sadly, like so many scientists these days, he says they evolved.
And that's the simple answer to any kind of miracle needed to explain engineering in the natural world these days. And so the intelligent design movement is seeking to change that and help people get away from the magic words that evolved and understand that engineering presupposes a mind and a plan, foresight and engineering design.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: Well, no doubt he is wowed by these designs, or he wouldn't put the time and energy into reporting it for people. But the difference is, you know, we don't hold that this mechanism, the selection and mutation mechanism, is powerful enough to have brought all this about in the time given to it or allotted to it. So it's definitely interesting to, to look at it from both perspectives. I've really found it to be interesting to, to look at biology from an engineering perspective, and that's really been a rewarding perspective that has emerged in biology in recent years. Are you aware, have you studied systems biology much in the last few years?
[00:18:32] Speaker A: I appreciate articles like Dr. Money's that bring these things to our attention. But bouncing off your statement about the time allowed, I don't think any amount of time is going to help.
In fact, time is more of a problem than help. They think, oh, well, miracles will happen if we give it enough time. But in many cases, no amount of time, I mean, quadrillions of years, is not sufficient for these kinds of miracles to happen. So it's better to look at the engineering we see from the perspective of intelligent design, because we're familiar with engineering and we know that every time we see something that works according to a complex function with multitude of parts, it was produced by a mind not by chance and natural law.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Well, let's turn briefly to another plant system that you've written about recently, and that's plant roots. For this one, you report on a recent paper in the same journal Current Biology from a team of researchers in China. What was the purpose of their research?
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Yes, this was another fascinating paper that led to the jackhammer analogy here. And we'll talk about in a minute. People in the Far east, in Asia and China, they depend heavily on rice. And so these scientists wanted to see what can we learn about plant roots so that we can improve the rice crops for the people in our country and around the world.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Now remind us of the purpose of root hairs and how they function like anchor bolts for the plant's main root tip.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Okay, Well, a root, of course, is growing downward and exploring the soil beneath, looking for nutrients and water. But every once in a while, it may hit a hard layer called hard pan.
And what does the root do when it encounters a barrier like that? So this is what led to the jackhammer analogy. If you have a jackhammer on a surface of concrete, it's going to bounce around unless it's anchored, unless there's a strong guy holding it, or if you think of like a automated cylindrical jackhammer down a tube with a hitting a concrete layer below it, how is it going to avoid bouncing on that layer? Well, if it has bolts going out to the sides, that are anchored to the walls, then it's secured and can make headway down the tube. So plants use their root hairs like anchor bolts. And this was a fascinating discovery described in this paper.
So it involves a multitude of parts. Again, so we see irreducible complexity in this process.
As the root hair is going down, first of all, it's got to be able to sense that there's a hard pan layer below it. So you're going to have to have a molecular machine that can sense the hard pan. And there is a molecular machine that is mechanosensitive, it's called, it's an ion channel. And so when it senses that it's not making headway because there's pressure below, it sends a signal to enzymes that turn up, ramp up the production of plant hormones called auxins, which are growth hormones. And so this enzyme triggers the promotion of growth hormones. So the cells at the root tip start proliferating. And you can think of like increasing the surface area of the spear point on that, on that jackhammer. But another interesting thing happens. This also triggers the auxin triggers another enzyme which goes up the root to the root hair zone. So it has to migrate this hormone up to the root hair zone and trigger the growth of the root hairs, which grow horizontally outward in all directions. So these root hairs explore the area in their domain, and they become like horizontal anchors on the sidewalls, which can help the root tip down below be secured so it doesn't bounce around on the hard pan layer. But another interesting thing going on too, that we don't want to omit is that there is a phenomenon called gravitropism. So the root has to know which way is up and which way is down, because if the root is not growing straight down, it's going to tend to bend when it hits the hard pan. And you want to attack it at a right angle. So you have all these things working together to anchor the root tip. And it's a slow motion jackhammer, to be sure. It's not pounding in real time, but it increases the number of cells that are growing, which gives more pressure on the tip. And the tip is not going to bounce because it has all these anchors up above that are holding it in place. So over time, many of us have noticed how plants have an uncanny ability to grow through concrete. Have you ever seen that? And they can even cause concrete to buckle. And here a tender little root is able to penetrate hard pan through these processes that they've discovered.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Yeah, they're small, but they're mighty and they're persistent. Well, you mentioned a couple of important accessory proteins that are involved in this controlled penetration of plant roots through the hard layers. Tell us about these proteins.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Yes. Without having to get into the names, which probably would be not understandable to most of us, you can read about these either in the paper or in my article. But there's one that switches on the auxin synthesis in the root tip and the root hairs. And then there's the ion channel, which is mechanosensitive, like I mentioned, at the which slows down the root tip. So it doesn't just try to bore through until it's ready. So it increases the production of root tip cells that can act together synergistically to penetrate the hard pan. So this is another case of irreducible complexity that I think is very fascinating.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: Now, this whole research project on root tips is geared toward helping crops become more resilient to soil stresses, which has the larger benefit of positively impacting global food security. How is this an example of intelligent design in action?
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Well, here again, we see that by studying nature's solutions to engineering problems, we can improve human engineering. In other words, we have many of the same types of problems that we would like to solve. So why not go to nature and look how they did it, even at the microscopic scale. And so biomimetics, which is a very popular field in science these days, there are whole departments, departments in academia devoted to this, to learning how nature solves problems and designing useful solutions in our own engineering. So this paper showed how by studying how root hairs are able to penetrate hardpan, it may lead to improved medical devices or improved devices in other fields that can help in our own human flourishing. So biomimetics, I think, is an example of intelligent design in action in science.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for elucidating this and sharing this in your articles and for dropping by to to discuss it today.
[00:25:55] Speaker A: My pleasure.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Well, listeners, you can read more of David's work at evolutionnews.org to get straight to his work from the evolutionnews.org homepage, just click the writers tab near the top and click on David's image and name. That's at evolutionnews.org for ID the Future. I'm Andrew McDermott. Thanks for listening.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Visit us at idthefuture.com and intelligentdesign.org this program is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by its center for Science and Culture.
