[00:00:00] Speaker A: Um.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: ID The Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
[00:00:12] Speaker A: Welcome to ID the future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. In late August and early September of 2023, three scientists and scholars from Discovery Institute, physicist Brian Miller, historian Richard Weichart, and geologist and attorney Casey Luskin went on a speaking tour in South Africa and Kenya. Here with me today to share their experiences of that trip are Casey Luskin and Brian Miller. Gents, welcome back to the show.
[00:00:39] Speaker C: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:00:40] Speaker D: Yeah, thanks for organizing this, Andrew.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, Casey, you recently published a
[email protected] that shared highlights and a few awesome photos from this trip. First, can you start by telling us what inspired such a trip?
[00:00:55] Speaker D: Yeah, and let me also say that I think it's really important to let people know about international interest for intelligent design. Just last week, I got an email from a young person who had a lot of questions about ID, kind of working through the issue, struggling with it, and they really wanted to know, well, is intelligent design support just here in America? And I said, Actually, not at all. In fact, we just got back from this fantastic trip to South Africa and Kenya, where Brian Miller and Richard Wykard and I gave a ton of lectures. We'll get into that, and we saw a huge amount of support for ID internationally. So what inspired this trip was actually, when I lived in South Africa, there were obviously quite a few folks who I met there who were friendly to intelligent design. I guess for folks who aren't aware, I lived in South Africa from 2016 to 2020 while I was doing a PhD there at the University of Johannesburg, and during that time, got to know a lot of folks. And so after I came back to the US. I was having some of my old friends and colleagues saying, hey, Casey, someday we'd love for you to come back to South Africa and give some lectures, give some talks, and be able to spread the message of intelligent design across South Africa. And so, well, you know, I'd love to do that, obviously, but it doesn't have to just be me coming. So we also organized to have Dr. Brian Miller come with us and also Professor Richard Wykart come with us so the three of us could give lectures, sort of covering multiple different topics. We'll talk about what we spoke on. We don't all have the same areas of focus, so it was useful to have people with different expertises. And then there was also a contact we had in Kenya through a group called Biocosmos who had been asking to have some Discovery Institute speakers come and speak in Kenya. And I said, well, let's combine these trips. South Africa and Kenya. Let's put them both around the same time, late August, early September, and we'll be able to reach both countries with one trip because it's a long trip to get to Africa. So it's better to combine these two into one trip. So that's kind of what brought these two trips together.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Okay, so built on some friendships you developed in the years that you were living there, pursuing your PhD. That's great. Well, how many lectures did the three of you give altogether and how many people were in attendance?
[00:03:03] Speaker D: We tried to keep track as best as we could. It was a little over 65 lectures total given between Brian, Richard and myself. And we reached over 4000 people in person. There were also quite a few of people who were watching some of the events that we spoke at online. But it was over 4000 people who we directly were able to speak to.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:03:22] Speaker D: And let me tell you, it kept us very busy. We were in this rhythm where we know, give lectures and then go home that evening and start preparing for the next day, get as much sleep as we could and then go give the next day's lectures. It was very, very hectic trip.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Certainly not a purely leisure trip. Now, Brian, what were the topics of your lectures? What did you discuss?
[00:03:43] Speaker C: Well, I talked about an introduction to intelligent Design. I talked about the design in our universe, namely, the fine tuning the laws of nature. Talked about the design of our planet, talked about the origin of life and how the minimally complex cells point to design. And I also talked about how an engineering framework for biology gives you greater explanatory and predictive power. And then when I was in Kenya, I also talked about the social, philosophical and theological implications of the evolutionary framework.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: Okay. And did you get a sense you were speaking to people who'd had no clue about ID or were they already clued in?
[00:04:19] Speaker C: Well, my experience was I mean, it was really quite remarkable how many people did have a very strong working knowledge of intelligent design. Some of the people were very familiar with everyone from Philip Johnson to Michael Behe to Bill Dempsky. So it was really encouraging about how many people were very interested and knowledgeable about the topic.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Wow, that's neat. Well, Casey, how about you? What did you and Dr. Wykart speak on?
[00:04:45] Speaker D: So I also gave a few lectures sort of giving an Introduction to Intelligent Design. I also spoke about the design of planet Earth, sort of the design we see in geology. I spoke about how information and biology points to design. I also gave a lecture on human origins looking at hominid fossils, human and chimp genetics, and also evolutionary psychology, and was able to give these lectures quite a few times, actually, both in South Africa and Kenya, which was really cool to talk about the topic of human origins in some of the locations where some of the best hominid fossil sites actually exist in South Africa and Kenya. So it was really exciting to be able to talk about these topics there. Richard Weichart spoke about his area of expertise, which is the history of evolutionary thinking and how it has actually led to many social evils, including many racist, genocidal policies using evolutionary ideas to justify racism. And I think his lectures really struck a chord, especially in South Africa. He was actually not with us in Kenya, but folks there who have experienced racism very acutely and in terms of government policies and social policies. And Richard Weichart was able to document how these ideas don't just come out of nowhere. A lot of these racist policies, he's documented, came from evolutionary thinking and ideas that human beings weren't created to be equal, but evolved at different ways. And people seeing certain human types as being lower on the evolutionary scheme, evolutionary ladder, and contrasting that with a design based view which sees that all human beings are created in the image of God, that we have equality and really provides a very strong basis for universal human rights and universal human value. So I think that his message really reached a lot of people who were very interested to hear what he had to say.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: So, a really good array of topics between the three of you, it sounds like. Well, what were some of the highlights of the South Africa portion of the trip?
[00:06:37] Speaker D: Casey well, for me personally, I got to see a lot of friends and also family in South Africa that I hadn't seen in a number of years since my wife and I moved back in 2020 when the pandemic hit. But as far as giving lectures, I think that being able to speak at the University of Cape Town campus was really exciting. We had some wonderful exchanges with students there from an astronomy and astrophysics society. Brian spoke there on the design of the universe as well. Brian, you can talk about that. You had some great interchanges with students at the University of Cape Town, as I recall.
[00:07:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I was very impressed with how thoughtful the questions were, particularly University of Cape Town, where a lot of these students were really wrestling with deep issues of truth, of reality, of whether we're here by accident or for a purpose. So that was definitely one of the highlights of my trip, was really interacting with these students that are really exploring the deepest issues of life.
[00:07:31] Speaker D: We also had opportunity to talk to students at Northwest University of Protestroom. We spoke to quite a few engineering students there. And again, Brian kind of brought the house down with his lecture on engineering and biology. I think the engineering students really enjoyed that. Richard Wykhart was also there with us, and we also spoke at a university near Pretoria called Academia, which is an Afrikaans university. I think for all of us, though, one of the highlights was getting to go to a game park called Peelonsburg after we spoke in Pochastrum and richard Weichart is actually a birder. And so while we were at this game park in Peelonsburg, he was constantly know, Stop the car. And we were keeping our eyes out, trying to spot birds. And by the end, at the end of this game trip, we were able to really become sort of amateur experts in many of the local South African birds and helping Richard Weichard to spot birds so we could take photographs of them. It was a lot of fun.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: That's great. So you learned some things as well as taught others. That's the best. Well, then you went to Kenya. Who hosted you in Kenya, and what were some of the highlights there?
[00:08:30] Speaker D: So our Kenya portion of the trip was hosted by a group called Biocosmos Kenya, which is a group of Kenyan academics who are dedicated to promoting awareness about intelligent design in Kenya. And they also kept us on a very busy schedule. I think we spoke at four universities and a conference during our six full days in Kenya. So I don't know. Brian, what do you want to talk about with Kenya? I want to hog the mic here.
[00:08:53] Speaker C: Well, it was incredible just how welcoming they were, and they really honored us. And we had university officials that greeted us and introduced us. And I was really struck by how hungry they were to hear the truth and how open they were to learn about the evidence of design and biology and cosmology. And many of them really just strongly encouraged us to come back and teach throughout Kenya even more. Yeah.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: And that was really my next question. Was the reception that the trio received in both countries, or at least in one of them, with Richard Wykhart. Can you speak a little bit more about the reception and kind of what they did to welcome you and how familiar they already are with ID?
[00:09:38] Speaker C: Yeah, certainly. So part of the welcome was I mean, we literally had a red carpet, a literal red carpet. We had a marching band, we had top university officials that introduced us. And what was really striking is, in one particular university, the vice chancellor was intimately familiar with all the major players in intelligent design. He had read Phil Johnson. He was very familiar with the arguments. So it was an incredibly sophisticated overview of intelligent design that he gave in his introduction. What was also really striking is how easily people understood the arguments and how quickly they embraced them. It was very different from the west that because they weren't trained to see the world through this very materialistic lens, they were able to pursue the truth where the evidence led. And that was very striking, particularly among the biologists.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: So, a marked difference between the students that you might get in an American university and the ones you spoke to?
[00:10:34] Speaker C: Oh, very much so. Yeah.
[00:10:36] Speaker D: I think that the students in Africa are far less jaded than they are in the US. I know I'm not supposed to talk bad about students in the US, but you guys felt like they were hungry to learn. They didn't feel entitled. They were really eager to just hear about these ideas. Some folks were already familiar with ID, but a lot of folks were not. And so we tried to really keep it at a very basic level so that everybody was following us. But I think we were very pleasantly surprised by how much ID knowledge was already there. In fact, one of the really encouraging responses was, everywhere we went, both in South Africa and in Kenya, we would have students coming up to us saying, oh, I attended your summer seminar on intelligent design, or I attended the international seminar, and sometimes I would remember their names. But we've now have over 800 alumni of the summer seminar program, so I have trouble keeping all the names in my head. And sometimes some students are more vocal than others, so you don't always get to know them all quite equally as well. But it was really encouraging how many students came up to us and said, oh, I attended the summer seminar, or, I listened to the podcast, or I read Evolution News. So there are folks in these countries that are following ID very closely, whether we're always in contact with them or not, it was very encouraging.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: It's always great for a teacher to have a receptive audience and to have their message resonate with their audience. That's rewarding. Well, Brian, outside the busy speaking schedule, did you get a chance to do any exploring or visit any local specialties in Kenya?
[00:12:02] Speaker C: Well, as Casey mentioned, we did have a really wonderful trip to the game reserve, where we saw elephants and hippopotamuses and ostriches and just many other animals, which was really encouraging. And obviously, Richard particularly appreciated the birds. And then also we had a really nice tour of Cape Town, which is an absolutely beautiful city. So that was definitely, in terms of the sightseeing, that was just very much a highlight.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. How about you, Casey? What was your highlight in Kenya?
[00:12:30] Speaker D: Yeah, in Kenya, we got to go to a game park in Nairobi, the Nairobi National Park. And there we saw an incredible encounter with some lions. I think probably one of the best. I've been to quite a few game parks while I lived in South Africa, and I think this was one of the top lion encounters we ever had. There were just a whole bunch of cars that were parked around some lions that were taking a nap in the afternoon sun. Actually, they were sleeping in the shade of a giant, very tall, high speed rail that had been built through the game park. I don't know how they built know, in the middle of this game park with all these wild animals, but it was really quite extraordinary to see these lions right up close there. It was pretty cool.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: Wow. Well, Casey, you end the blog post on this trip saying that interest in and support for Intelligent Design is burning brightly across the continent of Africa. Is this an encouraging sign for the future of the Intelligent Design research program?
[00:13:23] Speaker D: Yes, I think it is. There's often this stereotype that Intelligent Design is just this peculiar American phenomenon. And this is really a talking point that's been put out by a lot of ID critics who have no idea of what's actually going on with Intelligent Design. We have very active ID groups and people promoting intelligent Design in countries across Africa, including South Africa and Kenya, but also other countries as well. In Africa where we've had contact, there's a huge ID group. In Brazil. There are ID groups active in the UK, in Europe, in Australia. So it's really exciting to see internationally ID catching on and people these are groups, by the way, that have sprung up without Discovery Institute starting them. These are very much grassroots. These are just people who see the evidence for design, want to follow the evidence where it leads. One of the cool things about Africa, though, is I think that it is a more tolerant culture. There's not so much of this sort know, as Brian said, this materialistic bias that tries to cancel people that have a Intelligent Design friendly view. So I think that the scientists in Africa are actually a lot more free to express their views and actually explore these ideas. We're already in conversation about funding some research with at least one scientist in Africa who's come to us with a research proposal. So we're really excited to see ID growing there and see what we can do to help foster that. I think there's a lot more freedom, intellectual freedom in Africa than there is in the west.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Sounds like a wonderful frontier for new ID interest and research. Brian, is there any other points you wanted to make before I close it?
[00:14:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I completely agree with Casey that there was much interest among the scientists we encountered to work with us, and even many wanted to collaborate with us. One of the most remarkable experiences was a student of biology that came up after one of the talks, practically in tears, because she said she didn't want to continue in biology because the sort of evolutionary narrative sort of made it very disenchanting that life was just this accident, that human psychology is just through these sort of accidental circumstances in our past. But then after she understood how life shows clear evidence of design, she was inspired to research it, because now it actually is a discipline that makes sense and is consistent with her intuition.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah, and I must say that's another rewarding thing about what you've just done with this trip is you've given people hope, and sometimes you have to give them a glimpse of a different paradigm, a different story, one that better fits the evidence in order to incite them to what they're trying to do.
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, Casey, Brian, thanks for taking the time out to discuss this trip. I hope you'll do other speaking tours like this and other people at Discovery Institute. Sounds like a great way to take our ideas on the road and connect with people. It's great to have examples like this of the enthusiasm people have internationally for the arguments of intelligent design. It's one thing to say that it's taking off in America, but to really have a global outlook and to get feedback on that international support is pretty awesome. Well, listeners, you can read Casey's post and see photos from this
[email protected], and to easily find it, just hover over the writers tab and click on Casey's image. If you enjoy the content you hear on ID the Future, consider leaving us a written review at Apple podcasts to inspire others to tune in. Until next time, I'm Andrew McDermott for Idthefuture. Thanks for listening.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Visit
[email protected] and intelligentdesign.org. This program is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by its center for Science and Culture.
