Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:05 ID the future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
Speaker 2 00:00:12 Hello, I'm Tom Gilson. We're back again with Wesley j Smith, chair and senior fellow at the Discovery Institute's Center on Human Exceptionalism and host of the Humanized Podcast. And we're in the second half of his interview with the co-authors of the 2022 book, your design Body. Steve Laufman is a computer engineer and engineering consultant with expertise in the design of enterprise level systems. He's the founder of the Discovery Institute's Engineering research group, too. Howard Glicksman is a primary care and hospice physician with more than 40 years of experience in clinical practice. And just so you know, who's who, the first person you'll hear speak is Wesley Smith. Then Steve Mann's voice comes in very briefly as he turns it over to Howard Glicksman.
Speaker 3 00:01:07 It, it's interesting, I mean, there was just, uh, as we're recording this, a a, uh, young man playing football, professional football collapsed with a cardiac arrest, um, on the field. And, um, if your heart is stopped, I guess you're supposed, you know, you can be called dead, but his heart was restarted, so why isn't that life restarting? Or was he never actually dead in that sense?
Speaker 4 00:01:31 Well, I'll let Howard touch that one.
Speaker 3 00:01:33 <laugh>, that's a Howard question. I, I,
Speaker 4 00:01:36 I'm not, well, you know, you could, you can have a rhythm problem with your heart ventricular dysrhythmia that, that malignant ventricular dysrhythmia. So, uh, in certain settings that can cause that, that can be brought back. I mean, that's what we do at,
Speaker 3 00:01:49 In other words, because, because he wa because without getting into that, that young man, and we hope that he's all well, sure, sure. But, um, but once it, when you restart somebody's heart and it succeeds and they remain alive, it's because they actually had never, the life force, whatever that is, had never fully left. Is that right?
Speaker 4 00:02:08 Yes. I mean, what you're talking about is what, what is death? I mean, what is the definition of death? And, and generally, it's generally usually a cardiopulmonary arrest. And really the reason why, that reason why you die, if your heart or your lung, if your heart stops or your breathing stops, or they stop at the same time in general, separate from brain death, is because you're not getting any new supplies of oxygen. Uh, and then the cells in your brain die, and specifically the cells in your respiratory center, which tell you to breathe, and then, then it's sort of game over. Once those cells die, there's nothing to tell you to breathe anymore. And that's why in the old days before we had cardio, you know, cardio, resuscitation, et cetera, generally if someone stopped breathing and their heart stops, you know, they were considered, they would die. No one really knows, knows when the soul leaves the body, but they were considered to be, uh, to die at that point. Um, so in this case, with this gentleman, they were able to get his heart back, uh, soon enough before he would have, uh, hopefully have no or limited damage to the brain. Um,
Speaker 3 00:03:06 And, and, and in terms of reproduction, it always is life from life. Uh, so you have, let's say in, uh, sexual intercourse and, and, uh, a conception. You have two cells that are alive, but are not organisms,
Speaker 4 00:03:22 Right.
Speaker 3 00:03:22 Coming together and creating a life that is an organism. Is that right?
Speaker 4 00:03:27 Exactly. And and of course, the key thing for Darwinism is somehow you have to have the two, the male and the female have to evolve at the same time. I mean, they
Speaker 3 00:03:36 Have, I never thought,
Speaker 4 00:03:37 Yes. Yeah. Their systems have to be in place. Besides, besides the whole hormonal, the actual structures and the hormonal systems and release of the egg and, and the sperm, et cetera, they actually have to be in existence at the same time.
Speaker 3 00:03:50 And, and so that they can interact together and, and have that conception take place. And even the simplest, uh, life form a one cell amoeba, as you said, it, it procreates by splitting. So that's life from life, correct.
Speaker 4 00:04:05 Exactly. Right. Yeah. I, I think, uh, recently, I think it was the 200th anniversary of Louis Pasture's, uh, his birth, I think. And, you know, he, he was the one who approved, uh, a biogenesis, you know, that, that he proved that a biogenesis was not true, because up until that time they thought that, um, you know, life could come from, uh, uh, from dirt or, you know, they would, they would leave things, they would leave things out in the, in the, in the, out in the open. And suddenly there would be flies or maggots or whatever. So, uh, he was the one who proved that only life comes from life. Now, it seems like right after he did that, the Darwinism came along and said, oh, by the way, yeah, we got chemical evolution and, you know, a biogenesis, because that's the basic, the theory of a biogenesis, you know,
Speaker 3 00:04:48 So there's no example that we know, know of life spontaneously coming into being from non-life. Is that right?
Speaker 4 00:04:56 That's correct. That's correct. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:04:59 All right. Let's talk a little bit about the medical side. Um, uh, you guys, and I'm sure Howard, uh, contributed this mostly. So I'll have Howard ask the answer the question on the medical side. You write that the body must one, follow the rules. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 00:05:14 So, yes, um, I think a good example is that what most people don't realize is, as Steve has alluded to, um, the, the laws of nature are trying to cause death all the time. So, for example, um, for mo laws of motion, right? Uh, we all know that in order something to move, this is the laws of nature. In order something to move, you have to have enough energy to go against inertia, friction. And if it's going uphill, gravity, okay, so you, so for example, you, for your blood to move around your body, you have this innovation, you have to have a heart that pumps the blood around, all right? Otherwise, otherwise, the laws of nature are gonna stop life from existing. So also for an ex, a a typical example is in the cell there's these, uh, two forces of nature called diffusion and osmosis.
Speaker 4 00:06:01 But basically they, they control, um, what happens with chemicals and fluid when, when there's two solutions separated by a membrane. And that's what you have in the, in the example of a, a cell. The inside of the cell has a totally different chemical composition than the, than the fluid outside the cell. And that has to be maintained. And you have something called sodium pumps that are using about one quarter of your energy at any given moment just to maintain that function. So, so that's, again, following the rules. This, the life has to follow the rules or actually combat the rules, come up with some sort of innovation to fight the natural, natural law, uh, excuse me, laws of nature that are gonna cause death. Um, in fact, that's what happens. As I said, when you don't have oxygen, the, the, the, the, um, the sodium pumps in your cells no longer work. The cells lose their control of volume and chemical content, and they die. And when it happens in your respiratory center, your, your brain dies, and that's it. So that's what really happens.
Speaker 3 00:07:01 And, and with trillions of cells, I I've read somewhere that, uh, our cells are all replaced every seven years, which is a completely different approach to procreation than organ, than an organism procreating. So the cells are actually recreating themselves as they're going through all of these various processes of following the rules. Is that right?
Speaker 4 00:07:23 Exactly. Steve talks a lot about this as well. It's like the life cycle. For some, we don't really understand how certain, you know, bone cells, certain organ cells are always, uh, uh, redeveloping or, or growing and, and, uh, and, uh, multiplying, whereas other, whereas other glands, glands, the cells may stay a little longer. So, uh, yeah. That your body changes. That's the whole point. You're, you're, you have totally different cells in the body, but you're the same person for some reason, you know? Yeah. Um,
Speaker 3 00:07:52 Yeah. And I'm, I'm because of Tom, I'm gonna just skip through the other three. Take control must possess the exactly right. Functional capacities, which I think you've just described. And the body must be finally, finally tuned, not finally, finally tuned. Correct.
Speaker 4 00:08:08 Right. So that's where we're talking about. Like for example, uh, you know, your temperature has to stay in a certain range. The oxygen allows to be a certain range. Your blood pressure, if your blood pressure's too high, y you burst your blood vessels in, in the brain. If it's too low, you don't have enough blood flow to the body. And so, you know, your body is controlling the blood pressure. Right. Uh, but it has to have some sort of set point somewhere deciding, well, what the blood pressure should be and as temperature, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 00:08:32 So, and these are all happening at the same time. And for the most part, unconsciously, as far as we're concerned, we we're not aware that that is going on.
Speaker 4 00:08:40 Yes, exactly. And until things go wrong, like you stand, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:08:43 Then we know, well, my stomach hurts.
Speaker 4 00:08:45 Yeah, yeah. Or you stand up quickly and you feel dizzy, and that's a sign that the blood pressure's dropped too quickly and it's, and the body compensates for that within a second or two. Yeah. I just wanna comment also that the key thing in the book is that that first part of the book that I do a lot of writing about is what's called homeostasis. Things that we, you know, everything has to be just right. But then of course life is, we, we go on beyond that into, you know, vision and hearing and balance and, and everything else that's, um, makes it great to be human. I mean, these are the sort of things that have to be going all the time without our, without our control. I mean, cuz we don't have the capacity to figure it out all the time. You know, how much water should I drink? Uh, how much should oxygen should I take in, you know, what should my temperature be? What am I gonna do about it? You know, like if we, we don't have the ability to do that anyway, to manage that.
Speaker 3 00:09:31 And I've noticed that, you know, when I go to the doctor and he and I, he shows me the results of the blood test. If I'm within range, I guess you're saying I'm within that area of, uh, desirability. And if I'm out of range, then he will take, he will say, okay, I'm gonna give you this to get you back in range. Right. So that's how medicine works quite a bit.
Speaker 4 00:09:50 Exactly. Is a very good point. I, I brought that up in another talk that, you know, if we have all these lab, all this lab work you get done and there's a normal range, well, where does that come from? And there's a reason why the normal range, it indicates that from our perspective, the body's working. Okay. It's like your car when they do the diagnostics on the car, you know, or any other machine. Um, and, and that's where a doctor will decide if it's appropriate what to do or, you know, and, and the question is, is it affecting you or not? Yes. Et
Speaker 3 00:10:15 Cetera. And Steve, on the engineering side, you say that, you know, the, you treat the body, obviously you're talking about the human body. And as we said before, it could apply to other bodies as a system. And you say systems require many parts.
Speaker 5 00:10:30 Right? Right. That's, uh, that's leading into our coherence principle. So, um, you have in just a control system, let's, let's take, since we were talking about respiration. You have a respiratory control system. All control systems have minimally three completely different parts. One is a sensor. Uh, the sensor has to sense the right thing and it has to sense, it has to be sensitive around the set point, as Howard just described. So you have to know how much oxygen your brain is getting. So you have to have a sensor and it has to sense oxygen in the blood. And it has to sense the right level. It has to know whether it's too much or too little. And then you need control logic. You need, uh, somewhere in your system you have, there has to be a, a decision, uh, tree of some kind or decision logic, which decides what to do.
Speaker 5 00:11:30 Oxygen's too low. I need to increase the blood pressure, the heart needs to beat faster, I need to close off supply to other parts of the body so I get more blood pressure to the brain, whatever the solution is. So that's, um, that's the decision logic. And then you need those systems that affect the change. So you need systems that can generate more blood pressure. So you need sensors, you need control logic, you need, um, and you need the effectors. So in your knee you have four ligaments which hold your knee together. And they work like a a four bar system. If you're, you know, your audience has mechanical engineers, they'll know a four bar system. That's what your car uses for steering fish's jaws are, are built with four bar mechanisms. Actually, some of 'em have much more complex mechanisms. But, um, so you need multiple parts. Each part has to be made out of the right materials. Each part has to be the right shape and size with the right capacity. It has to be able to do just exactly what your body needs. So, uh,
Speaker 3 00:12:37 And and you're saying, is that the coherence part? Yes. That it has to do with the body needs.
Speaker 5 00:12:42 Yes. Yes. So, you know, the only transparent tissue in your body just happens to be on the optical axis in your eyes. <laugh>, no one wants to look through your, through your skin and see your spleen. It's not helpful. <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:12:58 <laugh>, it won't get the chicks right. It won't get the noodle.
Speaker 5 00:13:02 Yeah. Yeah. The only place you have enamel is on your teeth. You know why, why?
Speaker 3 00:13:08 That's very interesting. And then you also say, in terms of engineering, they must exhibit and for systems complex interdependencies.
Speaker 5 00:13:18 Yes. Yes. And that's, uh, what Howard was talking about earlier. So you can't, you can't get oxygen to your cells without your cardiovascular system. Uh, your cardiovascular system can't get oxygen without your lungs. So, uh, and each of those, what
Speaker 3 00:13:39 Came first, the chicken or the egg, right? Yeah, that's
Speaker 5 00:13:42 Right. So there are, yeah. And, and the common vernacular, everything in the body is a chicken and egg problem,
Speaker 3 00:13:49 And you need it all at the same time.
Speaker 5 00:13:52 Yes, that's right. Even
Speaker 3 00:13:53 The, and if you have, if you have part of it, but not the other part, that's one of the billion ways to die.
Speaker 5 00:13:59 Exactly. But even the simplest single cell bacteria has to solve 12 or 15 significant problems to be alive, and it has to solve another 12 or 15 problems to reproduce. So without
Speaker 3 00:14:17 And that's, that's just a one cell organism.
Speaker 5 00:14:19 Yeah, exactly. And, and in the human body, there are thousands and thousands of things going on constantly to keep
Speaker 3 00:14:26 You alive at the same time. Is there anything about the body, um, cuz you know, we obviously have learned quite a bit over the last few hundred years. Is there anything about the body that remains a mystery?
Speaker 5 00:14:40 Uh, yeah, so I'll, I'll I'll answer that and then Howard can correct me. Um,
Speaker 3 00:14:45 <laugh> correct.
Speaker 5 00:14:47 That's what he does. Uh, uh, yeah. I, I would argue that we don't know very much at all about the human body. We don't even know how many proteins the human body can produce. We don't know where they're produced inside the cells. We don't know when they're produced. I mean, we can sometimes observe that they've been produced, but we don't know the control systems that are doing that work. We don't, we don't have, we don't understand, uh, how medicine works to a large extent. We, we, you know, certain, in
Speaker 3 00:15:17 Other words, when I take an aspirin cuz I have a headache, my headache goes away, but you don't know why my headache goes away.
Speaker 5 00:15:22 Well, I, we may know why your headache goes away, but we don't know what causes cancer and we don't know what makes cancer go away. So there are a lot of genetic, uh, variations and, um, and, and there are so much that's just not known, which is why we, a lot of the detail we'd like to have put in our book, this just stuff that's not known, we couldn't put it in because nobody knows.
Speaker 3 00:15:47 All right. Howard, the cancer question, I always thought cancer was caused by, um, cells being mutating and then kind of forming this tumor and, and, and so forth. We don't know why that occurs. And, and, and doesn't chemo kill particular types of cells and not other types?
Speaker 4 00:16:04 I, I wish I could answer that better. I, I, you know, I'm a hospice physician, but I think a lot of what you're saying is true. I think that a lot of the cancer research, though, very interesting, a lot of the cancer research, uh, it relates to what's called connective tissue. That's a chapter we have in the book that you probably would not find anywhere else how the, how the cell actually interacts with the, the mild milieu, which it is. And so, so how, uh, they determine that, um, when you have, uh, pluripotent cells, when they start develop, they, they, they, if you, if you change one cell into another milieu, it, it detects the connective tissue around it. And so it will develop, like if you put it in, in like a, the background of the n nervous tissue will become nerve tissue. If you put it back in bone, it will become bone.
Speaker 4 00:16:46 So this is all, and this is all related to cancer research. So I do wanna make a comment though, when you asked about, uh, the body, et cetera, you know, when you ask that question, I have to be admit, you admit that I think as a physician we tend to have hubris, like, oh, we know so much. Right? Right. But, but what I've learned from Steve is the humility of asking the question. Here's the basic question that Steve started asking when I, when we started talking, where is the body plan? Where is the system? We've got the zygote, but where is the three dimensional system that explains where every cell's gonna go, how big it's gonna be, you know, how, what the organs are gonna look like, et cetera. Something I never thought about because engineers think it that way. So even when you asked the question, my reaction was like, yeah, we know a lot. Okay, there's a lot we don't know.
Speaker 3 00:17:31 But so, so let me, let me, let me translate, because I was involved in the stem cell fight Oh yeah. Back in the two thousands. So the, when a, when a egg and the, and the, uh, sperm, uh, unite in the fertilization, what re what results from that is a one celled organism called a zygote. And within that one cell is the potential to create all of the differentiated kinds of tissues that we find in our body. Of which, you know, there are many, many, many, but that's all, all existing once that one cell organism comes into being. But we don't know how that, we know what happens, like differentiation and so forth. But we don't know how you're saying that that one cell organism has within it all of that potential to create the complexity that you've just been describing. Is that right?
Speaker 4 00:18:23 Exactly. That's exactly what, and, and you put it perfectly. And, and it is just amazing that that one cell organism, all that information about that, that human, you know, human being is all in there. And, and Steve's initial question, because he is an engineer. Like, you know, when, when people read this book, my perspective was I'm hoping they're gonna ask themselves how does that really work? But on top of that, the Steve perspective is how do you build that from the ground up? And, and, and over the last few years, as Steve and I have worked on this, he keeps asking the question, you know, where is this information? Where, you know, no, nobody knows. Okay, now they talk about gene regulatory networks, et cetera, that may turn on this system or that system. And the key thing you're talking about is there's like over 200 different types of cells on the body, right?
Speaker 4 00:19:06 So as you say, differentiation. So you've got every, maybe people don't understand that every cell in the body, almost every cell in the body has the exact same dna. N but the cell in the beta cell in your pancreas, it turned it, it uses the DNA to make insulin. And the, and, and, and one of the ones may be in your thyroid gland is, is gonna make the thyroid hormone, but it still has the same dna. So this is your point that you're bringing up. This is just so amazing that all these cells somehow differentiate. They become, uh, they become, uh, the tissue that they're gonna be. And of course, once they do that, then they can't, they can't multiply, et cetera. So early on though, um, they, they have that potential. This is the whole point about, uh, adult stem cells, et cetera. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:19:49 Uh, you have a full chapter on allegations that the body is poorly designed as a, as a means of, um, rebutting the idea that there's an intelligent design. Uh, why do you think these arguments ultimately fail?
Speaker 4 00:20:05 Um, I'm not sure if Steve's with us still or not wants to answer. He's okay. Did you wanna answer that, Steve? Yeah,
Speaker 5 00:20:11 I'll take a swing at it. So, um, they're, uh, they usually fail because they're not serious. Uh, and they're not serious in the sense that, um, biologists seem to be completely unaware that there's a whole engineering discipline associated with evaluating a design. And, and, uh, none of the bad design arguments that I've ever seen go through any of the rigor that an engineer would, uh, deploy to evaluate a design.
Speaker 3 00:20:46 So if you're gonna evaluate a bridge, you're going to, you know, construction of a bridge, whether it was adequately constructed, will hold the truck, that kind of thing. You're going to go through a whole very rigorous approach to make sure that all the stresses work and so forth, correct? That's correct. And you're saying that that doesn't happen when biologists look at the body?
Speaker 5 00:21:06 That's correct. So they, they, they make, uh, typically one of five kinds of errors. And, uh, uh, they, they either, so before you can evaluate a design, you have to understand the goals of the design. So one of my, uh, close friends, uh, worked on the mirror array for the James Webb space telescope. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, designing the mirror wasn't really very hard. Evaluating the design, testing the design, and making sure the design would hold up against the stresses required for its launch and deployment was took years. It took years. And that's, um, and, and the, the level of detail, because they can't go fix it, you know, if something goes wrong, <laugh>, it sort of had to work the first time. So the level of work that goes into evaluating and verifying the design is extraordinarily, uh, detailed. And, um, so if you're gonna, if you're gonna take a body system and critique it, you need to understand the design, then you have to understand, uh, this is probably the major one that people mess up on, is, uh, the second point is you need to understand what the design trade offs are. You can, you know, I could make a car that would go a million mile miles an hour, but it can't have any mass.
Speaker 5 00:22:29 Yeah. <laugh>. So I can't, I can't carry any cargo.
Speaker 3 00:22:34 Um, and, and, and more, more practically speaking, as we've wanted to increase the miles per gallon, we've made the cars lighter, which makes them less safe for the occupants.
Speaker 5 00:22:46 That's right. So, yeah. So there are all kinds of trade offs. There's a reason that a tractor trailer can carry large loads in a, in a Honda Civic cannot. Yes. Um, they're designed for completely different uses and they make very different trade-offs in the design space, in the, in those degrees of freedom we talked about.
Speaker 3 00:23:06 So as a matter of engineering, there's always going to be a trade-off of some sort.
Speaker 5 00:23:11 That's right. So you, yeah. So it's very hard to say that something, well, let me rephrase that. It's very easy to say something is suboptimal, but when you take a system as a whole, it's the, the notion of optimality sort of doesn't apply anymore. You, you optimize on certain design features based on what you, what your goals are, um, and other design features you may sub-optimize because you, you have to in order to get the thing to work. So,
Speaker 3 00:23:43 So the opponents of intelligent design would say, well, there was no design. So these things kind of came to into place more or less by random events and, and there was really no trade off. And you're saying no, there's always a trade off to make something work the way it, it does. Is that right?
Speaker 5 00:24:06 That's right. The, the forces of chemistry and physics require trade-offs for everything to, to solve the problems that your body needs to solve in order to be alive. You have to make trade-offs.
Speaker 4 00:24:20 If I could just add something, one of, one of the sort of quote unquote tricks that's done here is basically the idea is to find something that people suffer from and say, it wasn't what it was badly designed. And then suddenly jump from there and say it wasn't designed at all. And then, and then not try to explain how it came into existence in the first place was, which is what our whole book is about. So in that chapter as an example, we talk about the, you know, the, the, the throat pharynx, because you know, the, you're at risk choking of, of choking, right? Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:24:51 And so we go through that ex extensively. But, but the trade off, of course, is, you know, one of the, one of the couple of the critics say, well, if we could be like whales, you know, they have a separate entry for, you know, for swallowing and for breathing. Of course, the problem is we wouldn't be able to talk, you know, <laugh>. And, and, and of course then, and then that would make the, our whole language centers per superfluous. I mean, they all have to be there at the same time. Um, so, but, but they never mention that we should be whales, you know? So it, it, it really is sort of humorous as, as Steve says, I I don't think they're very serious, but people do buy into it. Uh, because if you really thought about it, uh, a little bit, you realize that they're, uh,
Speaker 3 00:25:31 So we're designed by this great intelligence, and, and you don't try to identify what that is specifically. I mean, you're not, uh, promoting a, a Christian view or a, the, you are more or less a theistic view in a general sense. But if, if this great intelligence is the cause and design of our bodies, how come we wear out?
Speaker 4 00:25:55 I don't know. Why do we die?
Speaker 3 00:25:57 That's right. That's what I'm asking.
Speaker 5 00:25:59 So this is, uh, so this is the more serious part of the bad design argument, and that is degradation. Uh, one of the, one of the problems that the, the proponents of the bad design argument make is that, or one of the failures is that they don't account for degradation. Everything degrades, your TV falls apart, your car falls apart, your lawnmower stops working. You know, we know this, you know, eventually your roof starts leaking. Everything degrades over time. So how do you account for that in the history of life? What, what is, why, why do organisms die? I mean, maybe it's programmed, maybe it's de degradation. Maybe it's some combination. Uh, you know, this is another thing that we,
Speaker 3 00:26:45 Or maybe it's so that other organisms can live.
Speaker 5 00:26:48 Yeah. And we just don't understand. So this is another area where we just don't know enough yet.
Speaker 3 00:26:54 And Darwinism, uh, as we've described, it wouldn't actually account for that either, would it?
Speaker 5 00:27:00 No,
Speaker 3 00:27:02 That's very interesting. Um, final question, uh, just about, or actually penultimate question, does it really matter that whether we evolved, uh, were, were created, uh, like, uh, in, you know, in, in the Christian sense, or were intelligently designed in some fashion, we are what we are. Why does it matter how we came to be what we are?
Speaker 5 00:27:28 Well, this is, we believe this is the, the probably the single most important question any person, uh, has to choose, uh, in their life. Um, I, if you are the result of purely material processes that did not have you in mind, or the human body in mind, then you, um, then you are essentially a cosmic accident. There's no purpose, there's no intention, there's no value, there's no inherent value. Uh, and that's, that leads, if, if you believe that about yourself individually, that leads you to a very desperate place. It's a dark
Speaker 3 00:28:11 Lack of hope, isn't there? Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:28:13 It's a, it's a, it's a world worldview that leaves you leaves, uh, the individual with a sense of dread and despair and futile ness. Um, and, and the opposite answer leads in exactly the opposite direction. If our bodies were intended, then maybe we as individuals are intended. And that leads to, that sort of opens up the possibilities. It leads us to a world filled with hope and the potential for purpose, and
Speaker 3 00:28:50 Which brings us to human exceptionalism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which, uh, deals with the intrinsic dignity of human life and the obligations we have, uh, as human beings, simply because we're human beings. So throughout this whole interview, we end up, you know, where my passion is, which is human exceptionalism.
Speaker 4 00:29:11 If, if I could just add something Wesley to that, is that, and I'm sure Steve has felt this while we've been writing this project, the sheer beauty, right? This is what we're trying to pass on to people as well. Okay. The sheer beauty of, of the body or how everything works. I mean, you know, people can look at a bridge, they can look at a building that could look at a painting. Everyone can appreciate that. And I think what we want people to recognize and, and hopefully benefit from in their life, in their lives is, is the incredible beauty of how everything is working so well in the body. And, uh, and at, at some level, we have to be motivated too. You know, why would I be bothered writing and, you know, why am I writing this for 20 years, or Steve last four or five years, or like, what you do about human exceptionalism, you know? Um, you're out there sticking your neck out and, and standing up for, you know, uh, humanity. Um, and there's a, there's, there's something in our hearts. There's something deep in our hearts that are, that is motivating us, and it, and this is,
Speaker 3 00:30:11 And maybe that's something that can't be measured.
Speaker 4 00:30:14 Exactly. That's the crux of what's part of the, part of the book. But I think that binds the three of us together. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:30:20 Yeah. And creativity, I mean, moral, moral sense, creativity, things that, that really, you know, you cannot, um, you know, an ai I I, I've talked to, I've had shows on ai. I mean, they're just following our, they're programming human beings are different than that. Well, we're out of time. So what next for Stephen Lman and Howard Glicksman?
Speaker 5 00:30:42 Well, well, so we, uh, in this book, we introduce a theory of biological design. It's, uh, early times for this theory, but, but it has a lot of legs and it's got a lot of ways to run. So we are, we are actively working on research, uh, on this new theory. So, um, I'm, I'm gonna go out on a limb and, um, promise that at some point in the future, uh, maybe even in my lifetime, <laugh>, there will be a second book, uh, which is exploring this theory in much greater detail with, uh, with back backing it up with, uh, scientific research.
Speaker 4 00:31:23 I think from our experience, I was just gonna say, yeah, I'm, I'm just staying there with Steve, uh, you know, on his coattails as my wife says. But, but I would hope that the, what we've written in this book, uh, will be very, it is sort of like a, a, a primer for engineers. So every engineer who, who sees where there's, where their specialty fits into something in the body, they'll recognize, Hey, I can, you know, I can speak to that. I, I see how that fits into what I do and, and will allow more. Oh, so
Speaker 3 00:31:49 You would, would like to have other people come and contribute to the research you're doing and, and with regard to the biological engineering aspect?
Speaker 5 00:31:57 Absolutely.
Speaker 4 00:31:59 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:31:59 That's, and that, and biological engineering, we're not talking about, um, you know, genetic engineering, the body you're talking about figuring out how it works.
Speaker 5 00:32:07 Yeah. Right. Reverse engineering the systems in the body. And that will, that will give us, uh, great information about how the body came to be at, in, in the history of life. So there, part of our theory is that organic growth occurs so that not necessarily things were created the way we see them today, but that things change over time and we wanna understand the forces behind those changes.
Speaker 3 00:32:35 Well, this has been very interesting and I look forward to your next book. And thanks for being with me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 00:32:41 Yeah, thanks for having us. Thanks. We appreciate it.
Speaker 3 00:32:44 Thanks for listening to humanize from Discovery Institute Center on Human Exceptionalism, where human rights meet human responsibilities. Discover all the good work of the Center on Human exceptionalism by visiting discovery.org/human. We can only do this work, speaking on behalf of human life, human thriving, and our exceptional place in this world and our cosmos. With your support, we invite you to make a one-time gift today and to consider starting a monthly gift to support the Center on human exceptionalism and this show. Wherever you're listening to humanize, please take a moment to rate and review the show. You matter. Your actions matter. Be bold, be exceptional, and be back soon.
Speaker 2 00:33:29 You've been listening to Wesley j Smith, chair of the Discovery Institute's Center on human exceptionalism, talking with Steve Lman and Howard Glicksman about their book, your Designed Body. We say, thanks to Wesley Smith and the Humanized podcast for permission to rebroadcast. Be sure to check out your design body available easily on all the major online book sellers. For ID the Future, I'm Tom Gilson. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1 00:33:59 Visit us at ID the future com and intelligent design.org. This program is Copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by its Center for Science and Culture.
