Speaker 1 00:00:05 ID the future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
Speaker 2 00:00:12 What is a plant gall and why does it challenged our winning evolution? I'm Casey Luskin with ID The Future. And today we have on the show with us Dr. Wolf Eckhard Lunik, a geneticist now retired who worked for most of his career at the Max Plank Institute for Plant Breeding research in Germany. Dr. Lex's name should be familiar to many ID the future listeners as we've had him on, discussing many fascinating topics over the years. Today we're having him on to discuss the origin of Plant Galls, a topic that he knows something about because of his strong background in the biology of plants. So thank you so much Dr. Loick for joining us on the podcast today.
Speaker 3 00:00:50 Thank you for having me, and as I'm happy that you, uh, interviewing me.
Speaker 2 00:00:55 Oh, it's great to do this again. It's been a few years since we've done an interview and I'm, I've been looking forward to this. So the first question is sort of the obvious one to get us started off, what is a plant gall? And is this the kind of thing that we might see on a regular basis when we are observing plants?
Speaker 3 00:01:12 Yes. The phenomenon of plant galls is so widespread that almost everyone who has been out in the wild a few times, I've seen some plant core, however, usually without recognizing or realizing their function and meaning in nature, not to speak of the problems they pose for Darwin. And as followers, one can even say that as long as human beings have existed on the earth, they must also have perceived plant cores. But just recently, a lady in Amid forties wrote me a mail and said that she has noted this phenomenon without understanding and investigating the madam. So this plan called, uh, among many other things, there's iron gall ink, which was considered in the Middle Ages up to the 20th centuries and right into the 20th century. And, uh, the Kodak, the Magna, the Declaration of the Independence of the United States of America, but also theories of Isa Ag Newton and letters of Charles Steven Darwin were all written with pla gold in and even Le DaVinci, Vincent Van Johan, English pronunciation.
Speaker 3 00:02:30 Sebastian, we are written in iron Go according to Vic. Yes. And you also said, what are PLA goals? We are focusing our attention now to cloud golds induced by insects where there are other things, uh, uh, other, uh, organism inducing for here we find the most elaborated, intricate, particularly Gs, to which Darvan and other authors have mostly referred to. But the definitions have recently become more comprehensive and sometimes even distract from the really complex phenomena. Now, that's, uh, here's an, um, definition of an insect, uh, induced plant call by Richardson 2017 as a, uh, insect induced gall as a highly specialized structure resulting from atypical development of plant tissue induced by a reaction to the presence and activity of an insect. The insect induces a differentiation of tissues with features and functions of an ectopic organ providing nutrition and protection to the galling insect from natural enemies and environmental stresses.
Speaker 3 00:03:45 And now the important point, which I like to stress into, to emphasize, is that is a consensus of among gold searchers that virtually entirely new organs are formed in the insect course, and they speak of just a little quote in the intimate biochemical interactions. Hundreds of homologous novel effector proteins generated by the insects can be involved triggering the white range of surfaces calls provide. This was Harrison Bridge two 20 even producing it. I don't recall or don't enumerate all the authors, just what they have said. And you can see it on my homepage, we want to know exactly, uh, which author has defined which, uh, or use which words, producing new organs, novel organs, highly specialized plant organs, unique organs, plant tissue, organ, also neo form, plant, organ, and ectopic organs and generation of entirely new forms displaying good, constant and definite character or true forms, as does any independent organic being does in the overwhelming majority characterized, authorized strict host as specificity. So it's very interesting. New organs, entirely complex, specialized new organs are formed. And Nik of course, the next question would be what is, what is happening in that cloud core?
Speaker 2 00:05:20 Well, but before we go onto that wolf kart, I just wanna make sure our listeners are getting sort of the right mental picture of what we're talking about here. A plant gall, and, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is they're, they're like those lumpy, ball shaped bump things that you might see on a branch of a tree or a plant. They almost look like a, a lumpy tumor on a branch of a plant, and they could be the size of like a golf ball or a baseball or even bigger sometimes. And I think we've all seen these when we're looking at plants. I, is this basically a correct description, what I just said?
Speaker 3 00:05:56 Well, it is an enormous diversity. This description was correct, but there's much more forms which one cannot even imagine if one has not seen them. It's so complex and so astonishing and impressive.
Speaker 2 00:06:13 If you wanna know what a play call looks like, as Dr. Loick says, there are many diverse forms. And I I did see that when I did a Google search. There are lots of different shapes and sizes and even colors Yes. And locations of them. So I would say if you wanna know what a plant call is, google it, you'll get some great visuals. Yes. And you'll have a, and I think you'll with some average id, the future listener, we'll, we'll recognize them. So let me get to our next question then.
Speaker 3 00:06:36 Let's, let's Google it and look at, at my article, you find, uh, additional, uh, pictures.
Speaker 2 00:06:42 Great. Yes, very much so. We'll, we'll post a link to your article about plant galls from the podcast. So tell us, Dr. Loing, what might live inside of a plant gall. Could you give us some examples of what's inside a plant gall? I know you mentioned insects, uh, and are the insects, are they hurting or harming the plant? What's, what's going on here? Well,
Speaker 3 00:07:00 First, a little definition. Usually the adult female of the goal making creature selects the plant during the spring or early summer, while the plant is still actively growing and inserts apo AGL organ into a tender growing part. When she deposits her egg or eggs, she also injects a chemical that causes the gall to begin farming or even a cocktail of chemicals. Now, when the egg is put there hatches, the lava continues to release a chemical soup, uh, cocktail of chemicals that keep the gall going to match the size of the la galls are, uh, from, I don't give all these references and they be would spend half of their time with, with the reference. You can check them, uh, on my own page. Goals are, are abnormal growth that the caught on leaves, twigs roots, flowers of many plants. Most gods are caused by irritation or stimulation of plant cells due to feeding or egg-laying by insects such as Alfreds es wasps or mites the mok.
Speaker 3 00:08:14 So you, I heard another question. What are these insects or the lava <unk> which, uh, developing in, in the plant courts, are they these insects hurting or harming the plant? I would like to point out that for more than 330 years now, it has been known that the service provided by the plants for God formation, quotation results in their own disfigurement, mal 1679 massive infestations can induce stunting chlorosis wilting even death or in certain plants, diameter of stem and total height can be distinctly reduced, where even speak of gall disease cosis in the case of heavy infestations adversely affecting the plant in culture and or in the wild. But usually most in cases it is, uh, slight infections and the plant seems to control and survive the parasitic loads. Uh, yesterday I saw a heavily infected wild plant. It was really impressive, the entire plant full of these little houses of insects, which then, uh, leave that plant goal at the right time and they can open it and so on. Some goals, particularly those that occur on the stem centennial plants can be very serious problem. The goals not only dis figure the plants, but can result in even as per death of the plant. The goal is an example of a plant and animal relationship, but the plant is an unwilling and helpless partner and beautiful or ugly, large or small. The gall is completely made up of plant tissue, but it is the insect and it's particular chemicals that control the form and shape of the gall.
Speaker 2 00:10:09 So in evolutionary biology, we often see all traits in an organism is somehow benefiting the organism itself. And in fact, in the article that you wrote, and again, we'll post a link to the article in the description of the podcast, you quote Darwin saying quote, natural selection cannot possibly produce any modification in any one's species exclusively for the good of another species. If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one's species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species and would annihilate my theory, pruch could not have been produced through natural selection. So my, my question for you, Dr. Loing, is are plant gulls not simply there to benefit the species in which they occur? Are they benefiting the plant? Surely the animals in the gulls are doing something for the host in return, or is this not true? So what is, what is going on here?
Speaker 3 00:11:02 No, no, it's not true. It's not true. Definitely not true. To put it bluntly, according to several plant gal researcher, this phenomenon has in fact annihilated his theory because more than 99% don't benefit the species in which they occur. He also's natural selection can produce a government said nothing in one species with the exclusive good or injury of another. Though it may well produce parts organs, excretions highly useful or even indispensable, or again, highly luxurious to another. But in all cases at the same time, used for the, for the possessor point is they're definitely not useful for its possessor the plant. So the question is, do they benefit the plant and the clear answers they don't. In short and new organs, complex, refined, sophisticated high-tech gods consisting up to seven differentiated layers with diverse positive functions for the guests are formed at the exclusive expense of the plant.
Speaker 3 00:12:09 In the case of the gods in thousands of plant species, often the entire new organs have been formed for the exclusive good for more than 132,930 other species, the more than 130000th other species for their exclusive good. These ugly facts have annihilated Darwin theory as well as a modern versions of it according to many gal, gal researchers among them, by the way, of Professor Ilias of Clunks Institute in Germany, the gold are not useful to the possessor the plans. It is no space for these phenomena in the world of the selfish deemed for the plant. Cause the plants provide optimal nutrition, modified or buffered microenvironment. They feed and house the lavi of specialized insect species, or in the words of Kal following the interpretation of Richard Dawkins, the insect genes somehow induce plant tissues to swell in the spot where the egg has been laid. The plant thereby supplies the growing gap not only with food, but also with a safe and comfortable home. So the plants perform all these services at their own expenses and the costs can be alarmingly high.
Speaker 2 00:13:34 So Wolfhard, why do plant galls pose a challenge to Darwinian evolution?
Speaker 3 00:13:39 I would like to quote Oto Brown and Eric, they have auto reformulated and, uh, the ensuing basic questions for all election theories, Oden modern, and they ask, but how are we to understand the appearance of entirely new formation that are completely absent from normal host plan? How did the plan achieve potentials for totally new structures, exclusively serving other being? Can the principle of selection harbors their answer? No, it fails completely for altruistic potential arise. According to Darwin, the plants without Gods should have an advantage over those with gods. And so in the course of evolution, the goal free variance among the plants should have been chosen very soothed in everywhere as a fittest one because they don't have to pay this heavy load of losing materials which the other plants can use for growing and flowering and, and developing. Now to these what Maya and, uh, kins said, well, they speak of two different selection.
Speaker 3 00:14:51 S Maya coating on the one hand selection works on a population of gallins and favors those whose gall inducing chemicals stimulate the production of galls, giving maximum protection to the young lava. Now this is important point. This is the answer of Maya and also of LANs. This obviously is a matter of life or death for the gall insect. And, uh, Dawkins is quoting that part of Maya in, in, in this book about the extended phenotype. So it is a matter of life or death for the gall insect and that's constitute a very high selection in contrasts to the effective plants. The opposing selection pressure on the plant is in most cases quite small because having a few guards will depress very viability of the plant hosts only very slightly. The compromise in this case is all in favor of the guardian Act. Well, my first question would be, uh, in that case, but what about the often heavily infected plants also happening in the wire?
Speaker 2 00:16:01 So Wolf Ard, what about someone like Lynn Margulis who was fond of the symbiosis model of evolution? Could someone like her find some evolutionary explanation for plant galls that has something to do with symbiosis
Speaker 3 00:16:14 Biology online? What is symbiosis? Symbiosis can be defined as any kind of relationship or interaction between two dissimilar organs, each of which may receive benefits from their partners that they did not have while living alone. Well, in that case it's definitely different. It is only the animals in 99%, 99.99% that the, uh, plants don't receive benefits from their partners. So it's definitely not a benefit for both the organisms involved here. And another interesting point textbook, Stan suggested that the efforts and other galling insects quotation, manipulate latent plant developmental programs to produce modified atavistic plant morphologies rather than create new forms in novel. Well, considering the at post variability of the morphological forms of the plant goals, yet always in strict combination, they will say exactly tailored systems of functions focusing on the needs of the insects. My first question would be, which of their assumed ancestors of cloud as you should have ever produced such forms <laugh>?
Speaker 3 00:17:31 I do that is istic cloud or for morphologies? This is really a very doubtful thing, a, a really, um, conundrum. How is it possible that plants produce such anti any new forms that can induce for the exclusive benefit of another? This is by, by the way, ROS, who also said in a planned gall, we have unequivocal evidence for a structure occurring in one species for exclusive benefit of the other. He tried to only little, it's just of a structure. Well, it's more than thousand structures in more than one and 30,000 plants in the exclusive benefit for, uh, well in other structure occurring in one species for exclusive benefit of another.
Speaker 2 00:18:19 So Dr. Loick, let's close this up by talking about intelligent design. Obviously there's information involved in generating these plant galls. Can we make a case that plant galls were designed?
Speaker 3 00:18:31 Well, uh, first I would say that Demsky and dem bihi and others have said of, of the method to detect intelligent design. There's no magic, no vitalism, no appeal to a cult forces involved in the inferences to intelligent design. And, uh, inferring design is a widespread, irrational and objectifiable. So, and as inferring design is a perfectly common and well accepted human activity to distinguish by the way, designed events from events due to either law or chance. So what about most planned, uh, gods generated by insect? Well, for us, improbability fulfilled, specification fulfilled, purpose fulfilled. So adaptation sin, organization fulfilled even between kingdoms, inter kingdom sin organization, plants and animals. Irreducible complexity most probably fulfilled by many examples, a dorm, usually non appearing form building abilities that can be awakened in the plant for fulfilled plant altruism. For the third insects use complex compositions of proteins for gall induction in coordination or attuned to the potential of gall formation in the effective plants. Well, many research questions are so open and the listener and reader of the corresponding articles, which I've written with all the details, uh, is invited to decide whether he, she can already draw the conclusion to intelligent designs for not all, but for many of the insects induced plant golf phenomena because they are so complex, this is entirely new. Organs have been formed, complex organs. Just to explain these by an endless formation of, uh, <laugh> of mutations which are random, uh, SD for me is not that satisfying answer for
Speaker 2 00:20:32 Me. Okay. Well, Dr. Loick, thank you very much for enlightening us about this topic of plant gulls and coming on ID the future.
Speaker 3 00:20:41 Yes. Thank you very much for inviting me, <laugh>, having me. And we have talked about many points, but there are still many other points which you have not talked and just you'll find in this article.
Speaker 2 00:20:52 Yes, I would certainly invite our listeners to read Dr. LO's article on why plant calls pose a challenge to Darwinian evolution. We will post a link to it from the podcast. But Dr. Loick, thanks again for teaching us so much about this fascinating topic. I'm Casey Luskin with ID The Future. Thanks for listening.
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