[00:00:00] Speaker A: In the 90s and early 2000s, the scientists were uncovering this continent. This incredible system of layer upon layer of additional codes, patterns of information that almost, I won't say they put DNA to shame, but they act like a dramatic, wonderful dance partner with DNA in the Waltz of Life, Idaho the Future,
[00:00:26] Speaker B: a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
Many of us have heard about one of the biggest discoveries in modern biology, the discovery of DNA.
But perhaps an even bigger discovery than that would be that DNA isn't running the show by itself.
Now a second revolution is underway, centered around a hidden layer of information beyond DNA that helps direct the development of every living thing.
Welcome to ID the Future. I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. Joining me to discuss this is Dr. Tom Woodward, co author of a new book called Epigenetics and the Evidence of Design at the frontier of biology. Dr. Woodward is Professor Emeritus at Trinity College of Florida. A Princeton graduate in history and Latin American studies, He completed his PhD in the rhetoric of science at the University of South Florida. His book Doubts about Darwin, a Christianity Today Book of the year in 2004 was followed by Darwin Strikes Back, defending the science of Intelligent Design. He has lectured on intelligent design in 38 countries.
Tom, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: It's great to be with you.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: So over two episodes, I'd like to unpack some of the insights you and Your co author, Dr. James Gills discuss in Epigenetics and the Architect. You know, it's hard not to get excited about the epigenetic revolution and what it means for the study of life. But first we do have to understand it and grasp it and really get a feel for what, what we're talking about. So I'm looking forward to helping our audience do that today.
Now, Tom, your book opens with a bold claim that biology is experiencing a second revolution after the discovery of DNA. Tell us what's happening and why that's significant.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Sure. The main revolution of DNA, I mean, it began in the 1950s when, when the spiral double helix structure was brought to light. It was elucidated by Watson and Crick, but then as the genome, the human genome was actually spelled out in all of its 3.1 billion letters. It was very, very fascinating to look back at the time when President Clinton met with some top scientists at the White House to explain that the Human Genome Project was there, you know, and we now understand how we work genetically. And it was going to be the opening, you know, gate to fantastic, radical health enhancing discoveries. And then those discoveries just didn't pan out and Part of the reason is just at that same time, in the 90s and early 2000s, the scientists were uncovering this continent, this incredible system of layer upon layer of additional codes, patterns of information that almost, I won't say they put DNA to shame, but they act like a dramatic, wonderful dance partner with DNA in the waltz of life. And it has fantastic potential for, you know, our understanding where we came from, as well as our health, you know, our prospects for greater health. It's an exciting time to live. It is a second revolution.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
So the Human Genome Project really only unveiled part of the story, right? The DNA code. It was a huge achievement, but it didn't tell the whole story. And we'll get into that dance partner that you're talking about that's crucial to all of this. Now you and Dr. Gills have joined forces in this project. How did a world renowned eye surgeon team up with you, a PhD trained professor in the history of science?
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Well, it's an amazing story. Dr. Gill's still going strong.
He's retired from active medical practice, but he's still inspiring, you know, millions of people through his writings. He's a great, great friend and mentor of mine.
One of the top, you know, cataract surgeons of our time.
And when Dr. Gills approached me around 2010, he said, you know, Tom, have you heard about this breakthrough in methylation and the epigenome? And I said, the epa what?
I didn't even know what the epigenome was. And at that point I was a little bit in, in the, in the darkness, you know, just in the veil of ignorance. So at that point I launched as my own study, helped him with some writing that we were doing together. He said, let's go ahead and co author the original book of which this is the radical reworking of. It was called the Mysterious Epigenome. What lies beyond DNA came out basically December of 2011. We had a huge conference in 2012 and that got the ball rolling, but then we just saw the potential for bringing it out in a whole new format and with great enhanced research of the just cacophony. It's just like an explosion after explosion of new discoveries that's happened since 2012. So we said we need to really update and open up the curtain to this new, amazing world.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So radical reworking and updating of your 2012 book, the Mysterious Epigenome.
That's awesome. So you guys have worked together for that long and do you think you've got a grasp on the epigenome now or is there so much more for you to learn.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: That's funny. To ask that question is a little bit, kind of scary to consider how many more layers of digital or encoded information are right there under our nose and that we haven't even perceived it yet. It's almost, it's a little bit embarrassing maybe for the scientists to say, well, we've discovered this much, but there may be much more.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
Which reminds us of the role of humility in science, right?
[00:06:22] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: The ability to say here's what I know and here's all the things I don't know, you know, and sometimes we don't even know what we don't know until we get closer.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: Right? Yes.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: So humility is very important. Now you say DNA has a dance partner in the waltz of life. I love that, that idea. Help us picture that in our minds. What do you mean by that?
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Well, you know, when you have two, let's say a husband or wife dancing on this ballroom and to some Strauss waltz, it's, it's a beautiful picture. And you, you need both partners. You can't get along with just the one and not the other.
The, the waltz is designed that way and life is a little bit, and I'm just, you know, using that as a kind of basic comparison.
Life is so amazing in its ability to take a zygote, that's the fertilized cell, and proliferate it, that is, let it multiply and multiply into billions and even trillions of cells and in which in that process, each cell has a trajectory because it, it is pre programmed to turn into a muscle cell, a skin cell, you know, a brain, a liver, a heart, a pancreas. All of these cells seem to have like almost.
I know it's not supernatural in the spooky sense, but it's like a transcendent, like hard to imagine sophistication that allows that single cell to then redirect the usage of DNA to allow each cell to perform its functions. DNA is like a filing cabinet, but each cell knows which files to pull out and duplicate to create the appropriate machinery for that cell. And it's just amazing to see how this dance, if you can let me use the metaphor of a waltz. This dance is just a wonder to behold. It's amazing to see, but its secrets are one by one being opened up.
Let's just say the dance is understandable now to a level we wouldn't have imagined 20 years ago.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And even the fact that we know about the other dance partner, whereas before, you know, as DNA was being elucidated in the mid 20th century. We really did not.
So now when we say epigenome or epigenetic, let's get rid of the, you know, the fear of those words for people. What, what does that mean? Epigenome? Epigenetic. That, that means beyond, doesn't it?
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Yes. Epi, of course, is just the prefix which means above or on top of hovering over.
And so the idea of epigenetics is that there is the gene itself.
The spiral DNA structure, of course, is well known, pictured in magazines and books all the time.
So the gene has attached to it, for example, a certain kind of molecule called a methyl group or a methyl tag. We like to use the word tag because if you're sending a piece of luggage on a flight, the tag is attached saying where it needs to go to, you know, in case it does get lost, it'll come back to you.
And so the, the methyl tag is attached to the gene in certain very key spots. And when that tagged DNA is observed by the cellular equipment, they know not to touch it. It's taking a nap, it's resting, it's switched off.
But when the methyl tag by a machine that is sent down to pluck it away, when the methyl tag is removed, the gene wakes up and it says, hi, I'm awake, I'm ready to be used. And then the machinery comes down and says, thank you very much, we're going to make a copy of you. Wonderful. I'm imagining a conversation between the gene and equipment. Yeah, but the, but the, the gene then has a special ability to be turned off or turned on.
And in our 20, and actually could be closer to 25 or 30,000 genes, each one has its own pattern of methyl tagging on or off switching, depending on the cell type.
And when I explain that to biology students, they say, What? There's over 200 cell types. I mean, there's 200 different maps for each cell type. There's a map, a dynamic map. It can be adjusted, but there's a map of which cell genes are turned off and which are turned on, which are methylated and not methylated or methyl tagged. And I say, yes, that's exactly the case. And we're just getting started.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: And at that point they say, amazing.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah, And I'll say it too. Amazing, this extra information that is dictating or governing the processes.
So DNA alone is not sufficient to explain the development of living things. Was that the understanding? You know, after, after the structure of DNA was elucidated in the 1950s, did they think they'd gotten all the, you know, the whole picture?
Did they think DNA was the only thing that was governing development?
I.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: That's a good question. I defer to the historians, the science or biology historians among us, but I get from my reading, my research, I have always gained the impression that they were, they were not sticking their necks out exactly, and saying, this is it. You know, we found the, the, the one and only one key of life. But I think that they had a bit of an exaggerated, let's say, hope, even expectation would be the right word as to what we could actually then go in and fix or tweak and change in the cell just from the DNA, the double helix. What they didn't envision is that that double helix was again tethered, connected dynamically to a partner, which really is not just one system of tags, methyl tags, is one. But if you go out further outside the DNA structure itself, you see layers and levels of additional code that all work together in perfect harmony.
And so I think that the original pioneers did not envision what they see now.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: And you mentioned the Human Genome Project, which you said, you know, promised enormous medical breakthroughs that didn't quite come. The assumption was that once all the genes were mapped, we'd have the answers about disease, development, biological form. But there's that missing piece that isn't found in the DNA sequences alone.
Now, what about the ENCODE project? How did that and its idea of junk DNA being challenged, how did that help illuminate this whole epigenetic revolution?
[00:13:29] Speaker A: Yes, the ENCODE project was a huge breakthrough. The original studies that were conducted and released around 2007, but 2012 was when the next big stage where I think, you know, there were something like over a hundred laboratories involved, and they basically drilled down into the quieter parts of the genome that did not code for a protein. You know, that's what we learn in high school biology nowadays. You know, this is a DNA sequence and there's a protein that, that comes from it. It's the blueprint for a protein. Well, there's other 90% of the genome they assumed.
And even Darwinian proponents were saying that the, the other DNA is just junk, it's just broken. It's like trash that got carried along in the bus over the eons of evolution. And what they discovered in the ENCODE results, just really put out to the public in 2012, is that at least 80%, according to you and Bernie, 80% and maybe as high as 90 plus or 95 or all of the DNA is functional, it is being used, it is being open, read and employed. And that was the shocker of the decade. It was just, you know, and every, every discovery since then has enhanced this understanding. The DNA itself is remarkable in its massive usage that we didn't even glimpse.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah, so far from being evolutionary detritus, it was actually key aspects of the genome that wasn't just junk after all.
Now, you point out that there are layers upon layers of programmed instructions that allow a single zygote, a fertilized egg cell, to turn into an oak tree, a sockeye salmon, a cocker spaniel, or a human being. What information systems are scientists finding in the epigenome?
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Well, it's just amazing to see their variety. Can I just tick off maybe two or three, just real, real fast.
So DNA is wound around on spools that are comprised of very specialized.
They're called histone proteins. And they. They actually fit together in an amazing way to produce a spool with little tails sticking out.
And these tails have special location spots where what we call phosphorus, like the molecule phosphate, and there's another molecule called acetyl. And some spots in those tails are acetyl acetylated. And we have other kinds of tags that are attached to these little tails. And the tails act like clamps that either open up or they clamp down.
And they have other very interesting communication functions that are involved in. In those. Actually, there's about five major tags that are attached to those tails.
And so that's where the DNA is being controlled. But also the location of the microtubules, it's like the main buttresses, the main, if you will, columns of the cell that hold up the cell, you know, membrane in the right spot, in the right shape.
Those microtubule patterns are part of the cellular structure of information. Even on the membrane itself, on the exterior, there are proteins to which are attached tree, like they're branching glycan or sugar molecules. And these sugar molecules have their own code, their own system of communication and control.
And so there's an entire study, a huge field called the sugar code or glycan code study.
And when I study these realms and these new, you know, aspects of the epigenome, I just shake my head in almost disbelief. I mean, this is like something from science fiction, but it's something grander, bigger, and more expansive than we could ever imagine.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: Wow. Now, something else that you include in this book that I think sort of represents value added is you. You take a look at the health aspects of epigenetics and how it might help the everyday person with their lifestyle, with their health choices. So you devote a whole chapter of the book to this and you point out some real surprises. What can you tell us about, about that part of it?
[00:18:04] Speaker A: Well, certainly we are trying to show the connections that have been shown very positively and wonderfully shown. I can say that we can even participate. We can take action through our avoidance of. You could call them epigenetic killers, those things that kind of destroy or damage, that bring unhealthy aspects to bear on our various epigenetic instructions. And some of these are even related to our diet. For example, we have a whole chart of different kinds of foods that if you are making sure that you have at least some in your diet, they can provide your body with a wealth of methylation material. Those methyl tags are really supplied through the food that we take in.
And we are excited to see that even aging and all kinds of diseases have now been shown to have epigenetic triggers. And so the health authorities that are really working hard and researching this area are producing what I call true wonder drugs. They're drugs that are working not on so much the DNA, but the epigenetic switching system that is above the DNA and it can turn around really serious diseases and give hope. It's an amazing thing to see.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Interesting.
Now, one key discovery about epigenetics and exercise was a pleasant shocker. Tell us what Swedish scientists found as they sent young couch potato adults to a gym for an hour of intense workout.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: Oh yeah, that was one of the most amazing reports that I've ever come across. It's in Nature News Nature, the very, very top scientific magazine produced in London, I believe. And in their news report of this actual published peer reviewed article, the Karolinska Institute of Studies in this report really deals with genetics and epigenetics. Took, I believe it was 14 of these Swedish computer workers and they just sat at their keyboard and went home to their couch, you know, watch tv, went to bed, came back to the keyboard the next morning. And so they said to recruit a 14, all in their 20s. They said, would you just go and do an hour workout of this gym? That's right across the street was a gym that they could go to and they all signed up and they, so they did an, what we call an, an epigenetic check before and after the workout. They actually did a biopsy of the DNA, but also the methylation code them those little methyl tags attached which switched genes on and off. Well, in one hour of intense exercise all of those couch potato young adult workers had switched on three key metabolic genes that controlled the exercise, the muscle tissue that needs to get going at that point.
And before that study that was published just, you know, a little over, little over 10 years ago or so before that was studied, they thought, well, methylation is kind of locked in for each cell type, but no, it can turn on a dime, at least well in one hour.
And so that was like a startling discovery. And that's just one of a whole series that have opened up the doors in health improvement through epigenetics.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Ah, so it's true what our parents told us. Get, get off the couch and, and exercise and you'll, you'll turn on all your, your markers and keep your epigenome in good shape.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: We've been talking about what epigenetics is and why many scientists think it represents a major shift in biology. Now, there's a lot more to discuss here, so I'm going to continue this in another conversation, another episode. Next time, we'll talk about what these discoveries mean for our understanding of the origin and development of life. And we'll also look at why intelligent design better explains the presence and role of the epigenome than a Neo Darwinian framework. Now, in the meantime, you can learn more about the book and grab your own copy at Discovery Press.
That's where it's, we're publishing this Discovery Institute Press and, and that's the website you'll go to to get the book and learn more about it. Discovery Press, Epigenetics and the architect that's available for you to get a hold of even before you get to the next episode, the next part of our conversation. Well, Tom, thank you for helping us wrap our heads around this. I know that can be hard since a lot of the aspects of the epigenome are immaterial, but your bulk and this discussion is to help us kind of wrap our heads around it. So thanks for being with us.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: It's been a lot of fun. Thank you.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Well, for ID the Future, I'm your host, Andrew McDermott. Thanks for joining us.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: Visit
[email protected] and intelligent design.org this program
[00:23:05] Speaker B: is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by
[00:23:08] Speaker A: its center for Science and Culture.
