[00:00:04] Speaker A: ID the Future, a podcast about evolution and intelligent design.
Does animal complexity support intelligent design or Darwinian evolution? I'm Casey Luskin and today we have on the show with us today once again a special guest, Dr. Udita Jayatanga, who is a well established medical doctor in the UK who is a senior consultant in in rehabilitation medicine. His expertise is actually in helping people to do rehabilitation after brain injuries. We're gonna talk about that in this podcast as well. He was the Associate Clinical Director in Rehabilitation Medicine and was previously a member of the NHS England Rehabilitation Medicine Clinical Reference Group. He is originally from Sri Lanka, but he's spoken quite a bit on ID in both Sri Lanka and the uk. He's also written a book on intelligent design titled Intelligent Design as Proof Creation of Scientific Analysis. And he's used his medical and bioscience background to do quite a bit of his own research on intelligent design. In a previous podcast we talked with Dr. Jay Tunga about some of his arguments about why it would be very difficult for life to arise via natural unguided chemical reactions. We also talked to him about the complexity of the cell and the difficulty of getting positive mutations we or beneficial mutations. And one of the themes that we talked about is how there are many complex features in living organisms, from single celled organisms all the way up through animals where you would require multiple simultaneous mutations before these traits would give you any advantage. And so Dr. Jayatunga gave us a couple examples of animal complexity in the previous podcast about the freezing of the Alaskan wood frog and also male seahorse pregnancy that would be requiring many, many mutations to be present before these traits would give you any advantage and how this would actually cause great difficulty for these traits to evolve. So Dr. Jayatanga, thank you so much for joining us today for a second podcast to continue to discuss animal complexity.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Okay, well, we want to talk today about another really amazing trait and that is the tongue of the panther chameleon. Can you tell us about the complexity of the panther chameleon tongue? What is interesting, unique about this chameleon's tongue, what does it do and why does this pose a challenge to evolution?
[00:02:37] Speaker B: So again, in the previous podcast I did mention about some unique features and this is another unique feature of this chameleon. So they are generally very slow movers and therefore finding prey is extremely difficult for them. So to overcome this issue, they have got multiple changes to catch prey.
One is that they have got complex eyes, so both eyes move separately. Now in US and other Animals both eyes move its coordinated movement. But in panther chameleon the more both eyes move separately and because of that they have got 360 vision degree vision, so they can see all round. And because both eyes move separately, it said that they do have a sharper vision, they can have better depth perception. So this is one change, it's their eye. The other one is the most important thing is the long tongues. In fact, their tongue is longer than their body and it has got a ballistic type of movement. It moves 2500 meters per second, that's how fast, so two and a half kilometers per second, that is how fast the tongue is. It has got a suction cup at the tip and for this to work it has got special muscles, special bones and special cartilages and all these have to be coordinated through the brain and eyes.
And also because the tongue moves so fast, they need to hold on to the branch so tightly. So their feet are quite specially adapted to hold on to. It has got a suction type of apparatus. So now as you see there has, there are changes, very complex changes. They are not simple changes. Complex eyes, complex tongue, complex muscle, complex bone, cartilage and the brain and all cannot come over a long period of time because they have to catch prey to survive.
So again, this is another example where you need simultaneous changes within a short time for them to develop. So evolution cannot explain, explain such multiple changes in this situation.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Also you talk about in your book that the chameleon's tongue protrudes so fast that it hits the prey within 0.003 seconds. Obviously it's gotta be very fast if it's going to catch these small insects or it's not going to be able to eat and survive and be able to find food. So I think as you're saying, you know, there's many, many complex features of the chameleon's tongue have to be there or it's not going to be able to go out and find the food that it need and catch the food it needs to catch to live.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: All the systems have to be present for them to catch prey. It's the eyes and the tongue and yes, so 0, 0.3 seconds, that is the same as acceleration of 2 and a half kilometers per second. So it is ballistic type of thing and prey do not have any chance of escaping. And if you look at there is purpose to it. It is not a random thing because you can't explain these on a random basis. You can clearly see the purpose of what they need to do and all the structures should fall into place, all the mechanisms should fall into place. So I can't explain this on a random basis. These things have not just fallen on them randomly. It is based on their lifestyle and they need these mechanisms for them to survive.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Let's talk about flight and hummingbirds. You talk in your book about a hummingbird called the rufous hummingbird, and you say that it's about 8 centimeters in length, weighing about 5 grams in weight, and yet this little bird, you say it flies over 2,000 miles from Mexico to the Rocky Mountains in Canada, which, as you say, is truly a remarkable feat for such a small bird. Now, it's not just having the right bone structures, there's also many complex physiological traits and metabolic traits that need to be present for this hummingbird to be able to sustain such a long and prolonged migration to. Could you share a little bit about the complexity of flight in this hummingbird and the difficulties of evolving that trait?
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So this is again another amazing feature for such a tiny creature. Only five grams and they fly 2,000 miles. They are much more sophisticated than aircraft. Sometimes their wings beat up to 200 times per second and their heart is functioning at 1200 per minute. And for them to, their wing movements enable them to hover, go forward, backward, upside down. And these features are being studied for next generation of drones and aircraft to reach unreachable locations. What does it mean? That means that this hummingbird's biomechanics are much more superior than what we have got today. And scientists are trying to mimic these features. So if we need scientists to make features or similar features, and even if they can't make such sophisticated mechanisms, how can you say that it has come randomly? It is, it is not logical. It's not logical.
And also they have got very hollow bones, fused vertebrae, and their pectoral muscle, this pectoral muscle itself is one third of their body weight. So they are 5 grams. And the pectoral muscle is one third of their body weight. So you can see on all these muscles, mechanisms have to come together if for them to fly 2000 miles and they need to fly to survive. And all the mechanisms are part and parcel of their flying capacity. So as you see, there are multiple systems, muscles, bones, heart. Biomechanics are involved. They have to come simultaneously. They cannot come over thousands, once again, thousands or tens of thousands of years. So again, another example of superior animal features.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: Yeah, obviously if you're going to make a long migration like that, you've got to be able to make it and you got to have all the traits present in order to, for that to work, or else it's not going to work and it's going to, you know, you're, you're not going to survive. So very, very complex trait.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: Yeah, either, either you need to have all or none. I mean, if you, if any of these supportive mechanisms are not there, they can't do, do the flight. So all the, all the mechanisms have to be there for them to survive the journey. So that means all have to arise at the same time. They cannot come one at a time or like add on feature.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: So, Dr. Jayatanga, one of the most interesting examples of animal complexity that you talk about in your book that I had not heard about is the genome of a tiny microorganism called a water flea. You say it's just visible to the unaided eye called Daphnia pulex. And you say that it has about 31,000 genes, which is about 10,000 more genes than we human beings have. And if you were sort of an evolutionary scientist, you would probably look at this large genome and say, oh, it's probably just a lot of extra genetic baggage that doesn't really do much with. Yeah, those genes might be there, but they're probably not all that important. Maybe there's a lot of junk DNA in this organism. I don't know what they would say. But it turns out that this, this water flea is using these genes for some very important functions. So why does the water flea have this very complex genome? And how, how is it using these extra genes? Can you, can you talk to us about this?
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah, so this is again, very unique. I mean, it said that water fleas have got the highest genome of 31,000 genes, so about 10,000 genes more than humans. Now, there are no intermediates. So there are no water fleas with 23,000, 24,000, 26,000. Suddenly they have got additional 10,000 genes. So again, it shows that it has not come one at a time. I mean, we are talking about genes, not mutations. So why do they need. So they are quite universal creatures and from my reading, why they need is they can change their body morphology depending on the environment, so they can change their color, they can have extra spikes on their shell, or they can have a thicker shell so they can change their body morphology to suit the environment.
This is survival techniques to suit the environment. So that's why they have got these extra genes. So again, a very, very unique feature. And I can't, I can't see how extra 10,000 genes could be explained via a random mutational process. And again, we are talking about genes, not mutations per se.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it's pretty incredible. I was reading about this online. It says that Daphnia are able to avoid predators in a process called cyclomorphosis, in which they change their size and shape in order to become a less threat suitable food source. So how many organisms can do that? I mean, I think these extra genes are certainly being used for something. And you talk about an interesting point, that about one third of the genes that are found in this organism are not known in other species. So they're basically what we would call orphan. They're completely new.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. They're completely new. So they have suddenly appeared in water flea. So there's no evolutionary tree to explain it. So you need to explain how they got this additional 10,000 genes suddenly from nowhere.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah, and these are what you would call orphan genes. And we've talked about orphan genes on ID the Future before. We have research here at Discovery Institute that we're funding looking at the function for orphan genes. In fact, Dr. Ganeshekara, one of your friend and colleague, helps to head up our orphan gene project, which is finding that there are large numbers of genes in the genome of virtually every known organism. As we sequence more and more genomes, we're finding more and more of these orphan genes. They're basically unique and they're not found in any other species. So the problem, you know, according to evolution, new genes evolve from previously existing genes. Okay, so new genes evolve when some agent gene undergoes a duplication. It then experiences mutations which causes it to diverge over time. And the way that you're supposed to explain the evolution of new genes is, well, they came from preexisting genes and you're supposed to be able to find those similar genes, or homologues, as they're called. Well, what happens when you find genes that are basically unique? They don't have any known homologues in other species. These are called orphan genes, and they really pose a challenge to an evolutionary view. They're very much unexpected under an evolutionary perspective of genomics. Well, Dr. Jayatunga, I want to close this podcast out now by talking about the human brain. And you talk about, in your book, you say that the human brain is the most complex structure in the universe. And obviously this isn't something that is in your area of expertise because you help people recover from brain injuries. You basically help people with neural rehabilitation. So I take what you say on this Subject very, very seriously. So why do you say that the human brain is so complex and why does it pose a challenge to evolution?
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I have got a particular interest in this subject because of my work and it is mind boggling and it is, I feel that it is a no go area for evolutionary explanation. Now it is said, it is well known that our brain is the most complex structure in the universe. Now what do you mean by that when you say most complex structure? When you look at most complex man made structures are could be International Space Station, maybe Apollo mission, maybe Hadron Collider.
We can think of things like that. And to, to make those thousands of science may have put on thousands of mechanisms to make them. So in using intelligence, a scientist would have used thousands of mechanisms to get to International Space Station or Apollo mission and things like that. But our brain is much more complex than that. Which means that, why is that, is that we even don't understand the mechanisms. So if I, if I just quote European Brain Project, 500 scientists were working on that, 19 countries, they produced over 2,500 papers, they spent over 650 million euros and they did this project over 10 years. And the conclusion is we don't know even the basics of our brain.
Another, another quote is from Allen Institute for Brain Studies in the States. So the chief executive had said that describing their project, they said they don't know anything about the brain at the moment. What they're studying is a worm which has got about just over 300 neurons. So they are studying the worm to say, see how these neural mechanisms, neural structures work. And we have got 86 billion neurons. So this is the enormity of the brain.
So we are, we will never understand the complexity of the brain. And that's why it is the most complex in the universe. And also the power of the brain. It is 30 times more powerful than the most powerful computers made by man.
It is five times faster than the most powerful computers made by man. So IBM Sequoia is one of the top computers. It is held in a 300 and I think 18 square meter building and it has got 96 racks. And our brain is more powerful, 30 times more powerful than that. And IBM Sequoia needs 7 megawatts for it to function. And our brain needs 20 watts, which means that if you directly convert, our brain is 350,000 times more efficient than IBM Sequoia. So if the human intelligence cannot come even close to the complexity of the brain, it cannot be a random product. And the capacity of the brain is Same as the Internet, 2.5 petabytes. So Internet is not a random product, computer is not a random product. So how can you say that our brain is a random product?
And as I said, for all these things like intentional space station, they would have needed 10,000 mechanism. But evolutionists would argue, oh, our brain has come about by random mutations and natural selection. So one of the other arguments I make is in our brain you get about 100,000 chemical reactions via 50 to 100 neuropeptides. So these are dynamic reactions, which means that every second the combination of these neuropeptide reactions will change. So how can a random process give rise to that? I mean you can say a mutation gave rise to a beak, to changes in the beak, but when it comes to a dynamic process where it changes all the time, with so much complexity, how can you say random process have given rise to it? And the European brain project had identified as well as Allen Institute, they have identified 7,000 proteins in the brain, 3,000 types of cells, trillions of pathways, and in the brain itself there are about 500 components. So these are the complexities of the brain, that's why it is the most complex. The other thing is we are the superior species because of our cognition.
There have been studies to show that the cognition itself has needed extra over thousand genes, thousand genes. They again I want to stress these are not mutations, thousand genes. And on average human in.
Sorry, on average humans have got 27,000 nucleotides in one gene on average. So we are talking about thousand genes. So what are these cognitive factors which is unique to humans? Love, expression of love, sympathy, empathy, judgment, emotions, speech, social communications, appreciation, ability to study moral values, laughter, appreciation of meaning of life, appreciation of beauty, multitasking, planning, rationality and self awareness. So these are some of the cognitive features. Now if you look at that list, they are not life limiting features like a limb or a wing or a beak. So if they are not life limiting, how did natural selection select them? Because we actually don't need to need all these cognitive factors to live on earth. Maybe have got 8.7 million species, they don't have any of this. So, so we don't need all this. But humans have been given. So how come it is only in humans thousand genes? Why if it's random, why couldn't it be distributed in all animal kingdom? Horses, pigs, dogs, cats or you can name whatever, why aren't they in those animals? But why is it only in humans? Is it, is it? To me it is an absolute design feature.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Well, I appreciate your discussing with us and explain to us the complexity of the human brain, Dr. Jayatanga, because this is the area where you practice as a medical doctor and as a researcher. You understand the brain, you know what's going on there and its complexity really is astounding. So I just want to thank you, Dr. Jayatanga. You have so many other examples of animal complexity in your book. We don't have time to go through all of them. But it's a really enjoyable read just to get a survey of many complex features. I guarantee you you will learn something new about the complexity of animal forms that you didn't know. Again, the name of the book is Intelligent Design as Proof of Creation A scientific analysis. So, Dr. Jayatunga, thank you very much for your time and for sharing with us on ID the Future.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity. It was great to have this opportunity and thank you so much. I hope it was useful.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: I'm Casey Luskin with ID the Future. I'm sure it's useful. We all learned something today, no question about it. Thanks for listening. Great to have you. Dr. Jayatanga.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Thank you very much. Thank you. Take care.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: Visit
[email protected] and intelligent design.org this program is copyright Discovery Institute and recorded by its center for Science and Culture.
